Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

thirdcrank wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 7:48amThe next thing is employment. The days of people working in factories at the end of the street are gone.
Due to the pandemic, the days of (especially people in suburban areas) going to the office five days a week are also gone, and I am dubious they’re ever coming back on the same scale.
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

Lockdowns did reduce travel, by promoting working from home and banning non-essential - discretionary - journeys for all but the likes of Dom C. (They do say that Barnard Castle has enjoyed a boom in tourism this year.)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/b ... uxbndlbing

Lockdowns also curtailed school run traffic by closing schools to most pupils. which has been seen as a bad thing

IMO a good example of traffic reduction was a few years ago when petrol prices shot up to £1-50 a litre and more. Purely anecdotal, but I remember that term-time traffic levels seemed similar to school holidays. That suggests to me that the school run is a big contributor to traffic levels and, perhaps more to the point, motor traffic is sensitive to price increases. This was, after all, the thinking behind the short-lived fuel price escalator, which has been discussed on here before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_Price_Escalator

The conclusions seem to be that traffic reduction is possible but there's no real appetite in government to achieve it.
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

The school run is a massive contributor to traffic, and a lot of it is short journeys that can be done on foot - it takes me 25 min to comfortably walk no.2 spawn to and from school, but there are people who live marginally nearer than me that drive every morning (and then WFH).

It also appears that school bus services (are we're finding out with no.1) don't offer the flexibility to say 'we only need this on certain days' which then applies a pressure to take them.

School streets are an option and seem to work, but the school has to not be on a main road, and not a great option where the catchment is large (at primary it stretches miles up the hill) or secondary schools.
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

School streets are an option and seem to work, ...
But at what level? They may give relief to residents near the school but then what? ie Are we talking about overall traffic reduction or making life a bit better for people living near schools?
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

thirdcrank wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:10pm
School streets are an option and seem to work, ...
But at what level? They may give relief to residents near the school but then what? ie Are we talking about overall traffic reduction or making life a bit better for people living near schools?
If the argument is that a lot of (primary) school run traffic is short distances, and you move the closest point of approach further out, you remove the perceived time benefit of driving. Repeat in an urban area per school and it's a big difference to local traffic.

As I'm sure has been said above, look at the difference between term time and school holidays on traffic volumes - I appreciate some of this is people not going to work as they have children at home, but there is an effect.
Psamathe
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Psamathe »

ratherbeintobago wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:14pm ....
If the argument is that a lot of (primary) school run traffic is short distances, and you move the closest point of approach further out, you remove the perceived time benefit of driving. Repeat in an urban area per school and it's a big difference to local traffic.

As I'm sure has been said above, look at the difference between term time and school holidays on traffic volumes - I appreciate some of this is people not going to work as they have children at home, but there is an effect.
An aspect to low traffic neighbourhoods I've noticed recently in relation to the school run is air pollution. Daylight limits have meant I've tended to pass local Primary School before "School Run" time. 20 mins before school turn-out cars start collecting (get early to get prime position) and they sit there windows open and engine running. I assume engine running to keep driver warm, window open to avoid steaming-up. Fortunately my experience is a rural village so the air pollution is not a disaster but similar behaviour in towns could cause bad pollution.

Ian
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:21pm An aspect to low traffic neighbourhoods I've noticed recently in relation to the school run is air pollution. Daylight limits have meant I've tended to pass local Primary School before "School Run" time. 20 mins before school turn-out cars start collecting (get early to get prime position) and they sit there windows open and engine running. I assume engine running to keep driver warm, window open to avoid steaming-up. Fortunately my experience is a rural village so the air pollution is not a disaster but similar behaviour in towns could cause bad pollution.
No, same in Greater Manchester.
Psamathe
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Psamathe »

ratherbeintobago wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:28pm
Psamathe wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:21pm An aspect to low traffic neighbourhoods I've noticed recently in relation to the school run is air pollution. Daylight limits have meant I've tended to pass local Primary School before "School Run" time. 20 mins before school turn-out cars start collecting (get early to get prime position) and they sit there windows open and engine running. I assume engine running to keep driver warm, window open to avoid steaming-up. Fortunately my experience is a rural village so the air pollution is not a disaster but similar behaviour in towns could cause bad pollution.
No, same in Greater Manchester.
"No" as in not a problem in Greater Manchester or "No" as in it does become a problem in more built-up areas (I could interpret "same" as same school run behaviour with engines running or "same" as in not a pollution problem)? My only experience is rural village so I am guessing about it being an issue in built-up areas (a bit like a traffic jam on a main road every day).

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

ratherbeintobago wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:14pm
thirdcrank wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:10pm
School streets are an option and seem to work, ...
But at what level? They may give relief to residents near the school but then what? ie Are we talking about overall traffic reduction or making life a bit better for people living near schools?
If the argument is that a lot of (primary) school run traffic is short distances, and you move the closest point of approach further out, you remove the perceived time benefit of driving. Repeat in an urban area per school and it's a big difference to local traffic.

As I'm sure has been said above, look at the difference between term time and school holidays on traffic volumes - I appreciate some of this is people not going to work as they have children at home, but there is an effect.
I hope it's agreed that parental choice of school is A very popular and B increases the average length of school journeys. Years ago, I attended some sort of talk on the subject by somebody with a responsibility for co-ordinating school transport and the logistics were mind boggling. IMO yellow zig-zags etc outside schools are tinkering with this. And yes, if nobody else has made reference to different traffic levels in term time as opposed to school holidays I have (cries of "Many times.)
Jdsk
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:50pmI hope it's agreed that parental choice of school is A very popular...
Screenshot 2022-01-30 at 12.54.50.png
https://bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38964/bs ... choice.pdf

BSA 28 was around 2011/2012.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

I've done a bit of googling about the history of this and I see the enabling legislation was the School Standards and Framework Act 1998

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/31/contents

I've got this from the link below, which seems to be commenting from the perspective of parental rights, rather than traffic reduction.

https://www.bindmans.com/insight/blog/t ... tal-choice

In the interests of accuracy, I'll put my hand up to slack lingo on my part
It is important to note the wording which is ‘parental preference’ which is in contrast to ‘parental choice’ as expressed in the media.
I would say that opinion surveys are useful but they are not always weighted to take account of the strength of feeling among those directly affected. Whatever people say they think, their attitudes are magnified out of all proportion if they are personally affected. With school places, every disgruntled parent (often x 2) has a vote, as do all the countless grandparents, aunts and uncles. Residents' parking arouses similar strong feelings, with fewer alienated kin, but affecting residents with or without children. ie two subjects which tend to put local councillors into a white funk
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 12:33pm "No" as in not a problem in Greater Manchester or "No" as in it does become a problem in more built-up areas (I could interpret "same" as same school run behaviour with engines running or "same" as in not a pollution problem)? My only experience is rural village so I am guessing about it being an issue in built-up areas (a bit like a traffic jam on a main road every day).

Ian
No, as in it’s exactly the same in urban areas.
pwa
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by pwa »

thirdcrank wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 1:39pm I've done a bit of googling about the history of this and I see the enabling legislation was the School Standards and Framework Act 1998

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/31/contents

I've got this from the link below, which seems to be commenting from the perspective of parental rights, rather than traffic reduction.

https://www.bindmans.com/insight/blog/t ... tal-choice

In the interests of accuracy, I'll put my hand up to slack lingo on my part
It is important to note the wording which is ‘parental preference’ which is in contrast to ‘parental choice’ as expressed in the media.
I would say that opinion surveys are useful but they are not always weighted to take account of the strength of feeling among those directly affected. Whatever people say they think, their attitudes are magnified out of all proportion if they are personally affected. With school places, every disgruntled parent (often x 2) has a vote, as do all the countless grandparents, aunts and uncles. Residents' parking arouses similar strong feelings, with fewer alienated kin, but affecting residents with or without children. ie two subjects which tend to put local councillors into a white funk
In Wales, reasons for wanting your child to go to a particular school also include wanting your child to be taught primarily through the medium of the Welsh language, which is a choice parents are meant to have here. Then there are the reasons you also get in England, such as not wanting your kids to go to the school known to have a problem with drug dealers hanging about outside the gates, which was a consideration for us when we were choosing.

Another factor around here is that some communities are too strung out to have kids walking or cycling to school. That's where adequate bussing comes in. The primary school just around from our house has a couple of coachloads of kids arrive each school day, and a dedicated bay for them to stop in.
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

pwa wrote: 1 Feb 2022, 7:54amAnother factor around here is that some communities are too strung out to have kids walking or cycling to school. That's where adequate bussing comes in. The primary school just around from our house has a couple of coachloads of kids arrive each school day, and a dedicated bay for them to stop in.
Round here the council are building a new school that won't have a bus service as pupils should be able to get to/from using active travel.

Given that the school nearest me is regarded with dread by a lot of parents as it's constantly in special measures so some kids from here are going there, and given that they've built no suitable infrastructure I think they might be in for a fright.
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

This seems as good a place as any

Croydon Council deprived of £70,000 in traffic camera revenue
In six weeks I stopped more than 700 people
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60221439

Bearing in mind that prevention of offending is much better than detection and prosecution, I'd say "Well done Ricky!"
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