Older Deore hubs

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seabike
Posts: 15
Joined: 20 Sep 2020, 9:38pm

Older Deore hubs

Postby seabike » 18 Oct 2020, 12:23am

The rim braking surfaces on my recently acquired Orbit Ventura Reynolds 520 tourer are looking ominously concave, so I'm planning to rebuild both 700c wheels using Ryde Andra 30 rims. The hubs are Deore 510, both running very smoothly, so should be ok to reuse. According to SJS the spoke lengths for Andra 30 rims on Deore 610 hubs are 293mm front and 290mm/291mm rear. Do my Deore 510 hubs share the same flange dimensions as the newer Deore 610 and hence the same spoke lengths?

I notice SJS use plain 14 gauge DT Champion spokes throughout on their handbuilt Sputnik and Andra 30 wheels, whilst Spa go for a combination of Sapim Race and Sapim Strong. Which is best? I'll be touring with ultralight solo camping gear that easily fits inside my Carradice Carradura rear panniers, so not a huge load, and I very rarely venture off road.

Brucey
Posts: 41358
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Older Deore hubs

Postby Brucey » 18 Oct 2020, 12:37am

you can confirm the hubs specifications here https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/ but in SF hubs the dimensions are very similar even if they are not quite identical. 36x3 builds are not super-sensitive to hub flange diameter, so it is very likely that the same length spokes will work with each.

Spa's choice of spoke gauges is better, but (IME) there is a higher chance of ending up with faulty Sapim spokes than DT ones. Then again past performance is no guarantee of future success either. Either build will work OK in your intended use I think.

FWIW if the spokes have not been breaking, consider re-rimming the wheels, using rims with the same ERD. This is faster (and less expensive, obviously) than a full rebuild. In rim braked bikes, with a good initial wheelbuild, the same set of spokes will last for several sets of rims.

cheers
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seabike
Posts: 15
Joined: 20 Sep 2020, 9:38pm

Re: Older Deore hubs

Postby seabike » 18 Oct 2020, 12:24pm

Thanks Brucey. From the info I've found on various websites, the flange diameters are (inevitably) not identical, so I'll probably just buy the rims and then work out the spoke lengths required by trying the existing spokes and seeing how far out they are for fit.

It would be helpful if I could hit upon new rims with the same ERD, but I specifically wanted the strongest ones possible with 700c, ie Sputnik or Andra, and am not bothered about the extra weight. There are no markings on the current, worn 36H rims, so can't look up the ERD but I believe Orbit specified Alex Rims, and, according to a label on them, they were either built or rebuilt by Mercian. So I guess they will have been well built, but the spokes could conceivably be the original ones, circa 2004, and perhaps unwise to use in a rebuild.

iandusud
Posts: 562
Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Older Deore hubs

Postby iandusud » 18 Oct 2020, 2:09pm

seabike wrote:Thanks Brucey. From the info I've found on various websites, the flange diameters are (inevitably) not identical, so I'll probably just buy the rims and then work out the spoke lengths required by trying the existing spokes and seeing how far out they are for fit.

It would be helpful if I could hit upon new rims with the same ERD, but I specifically wanted the strongest ones possible with 700c, ie Sputnik or Andra, and am not bothered about the extra weight. There are no markings on the current, worn 36H rims, so can't look up the ERD but I believe Orbit specified Alex Rims, and, according to a label on them, they were either built or rebuilt by Mercian. So I guess they will have been well built, but the spokes could conceivably be the original ones, circa 2004, and perhaps unwise to use in a rebuild.


As Brucey says there won't be any significant difference in spoke length for different small flange Shimano hubs. I would also advise to try and find rims with a close ERD and rebuild using existing spokes. You have stated your intended usage and as such bombproof rims aren't necessarily what you need. You may well be able to find a suitable replacement rim other than the Sputniks on Andras and they might give a better ride into the bargain. Key information is the width of tyre you intend to use. I have toured with full camping gear on some pretty lightweight rims with no issues.

Ian

Brucey
Posts: 41358
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Older Deore hubs

Postby Brucey » 18 Oct 2020, 4:18pm

as per the link I posted upthread, shimano say;

deore M510 hubs are 45mm dia, 60.6mm spacing, 7.6mm dish (R) and 42 dia ,71.6mm spacing (F)

deore T610 hubs are 44L/45Rmm dia, 59.2mm spacing,7.8mm dish (R), 40 dia, 71.6 spacing (F)

The difference in the front flanges makes 0.4mm difference in spoke length in a 36x3 build. The difference in the rear hubs is less than that.

So as suggested, to all intents and purposes they are the same.

Stainless spokes from 2004 which have seen one rim's worth of wear are still 'pretty new' in my book. If they have not been breaking I would reuse them without a second thought.

If you want to build a first class set of wheels without unnecessary expense then remove a few of the extant spokes and measure them carefully. Then reverse-calculate the correct ERD, (which may not be identical to the rims you have at the moment) and buy new rims to match that.

You can swap a rim in about 25 minutes; then add whatever time you need to finish each wheel off. It should cost you a pair of rims and a couple of hour's work; not an especially big job.

cheers
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seabike
Posts: 15
Joined: 20 Sep 2020, 9:38pm

Re: Older Deore hubs

Postby seabike » 18 Oct 2020, 7:50pm

Thanks Ian, yes I agree that for the loads I'm carrying, I probably wouldn't need the strongest wheels. My Orbit frame seems to be limited by the chainstay clearance to 32mm tyres with mudguards. I've tried some 35c Continental Ride Tour but the gap between tyre and chainstay was less than 4mm on one side, so perhaps a little too tight when mud buildup is factored in. The roads here in rural Lincolnshire soon get covered in liquid mud when the tractors and trailers start hauling harvested cabbages and caulis in the autumn and winter months.

My choice of Sputnik or Andra rims was also based on the generous side wall thickness, which hopefully would cope with brake pad wear better than the lighter rims.

Brucey, sorry, I assumed the your Shimano link only covered the current product range, and hadn't noticed the small 'archive' link for older products. Now that I've had a look I found the T610 front hub showed a PCD of 38mm, compared to the 42mm of my Deore 510 hub. However I now appreciate that such small differences are not significant in practice.

I was surprised that it was considered safe to reuse older stainless spokes. I've built several yachts from scratch and I know from bitter experience that stressed stainless rigging components, under continual cyclic loads are notoriously prone to sudden failure with no warning signs. But I suppose the chances of a well built, stress relieved wheel self destructing are much less than stainless yacht rigging terminals under tons of strain.

At my level of wheelbuilding (absolute beginner) I doubt whether I'll be able to lace my first wheel in 25 minutes, but I'll enjoy learning as I go. I'm still getting my head around calculating ERD, and, as you suggest, reverse calculating it.

Your advice is much appreciated.

Brucey
Posts: 41358
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Older Deore hubs

Postby Brucey » 18 Oct 2020, 8:45pm

I double checked and HB-T610 reads PCD of 40mm in the 2013-2014 specifications.

If a wheel has started to break spokes you can take a view on whether this is caused by something that you can reasonably expect to address or not. If no spokes have broken then they can be considered 'good' and fit for further use, until this is proven otherwise. In well-built wheels with 'good' spokes the fatigue life is practically infinite. Once any given spoke is damaged by cracking, it will fail within a few hundred miles. So any problems with the spokes are usually made apparent in relatively short order. [Ships rigging sees horrible stresses and lots of salt spray; if you encountered similar conditions on a bike the hubs would probably disappear before your very eyes.]

You don't need to do any 'lacing' to do a rim swap; just tie the new rim to the old rim and swap the spokes over one at a time.

This is most easily accomplished (if you are right-handed) by having the wheel + new rim slanted to the right between your legs, and using a nipple key in your left hand, and a nipple setting tool (made from an old spoke) in your right hand. The method is (having backed all the nipples out about two turns to start with) to transfer all the spokes over one side at a time. Back each nipple out into the nipple setting tool until it is snug on it and then unwind the nipple using the tool and reset it on the spoke again having put that spoke through the other rim. Once you start moving spokes into the other rim you basically shouldn't have to put either tool down from start to finish.

The beauty of this method is that not only do you have not to fiddle with loose nipples (which is a PITA with any box section rim esp if it does not have double eyelets) but each nipple is set exactly to the same length by the nipple setting tool. If the spokes are the correct length for the rim ERD you can add an exact number of turns to each spoke and you will soon end up with something recognisably wheel-like.

cheers
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