Price of Chains

[Sweep]

enough fake KMC chains out there that they have this page on their website

https://www.kmcchain.eu/Fake_chains_The_price_of_succes

cheers

Looks like another good reason to stick to 8 and 9 speed. From a quick look at that link it looks like the fraudsters are little interested in them.
(Should add I only buy from proper places anyway)

[Sweep]

Z8.1 and Z8.3 models are similar to the old Z8 series.

Though not identical to each other, as I recall finding out the hard way.

More info please.
Some issue to do with pin length?

[Brucey]

Z8.1 = 7.1mm pin length
Z8.3 = 7.3mm pin length

cheers

[Sweep]

Z8.1 = 7.1mm pin length
Z8.3 = 7.3mm pin length

cheers

Had the idea that this might be the case.
Any issues with this?

[DaveReading]

Z8.1 = 7.1mm pin length
Z8.3 = 7.3mm pin length

cheers

Had the idea that this might be the case.
Any issues with this?

Try joining a 7.3 mm chain with a 7.1 mm quick link.

[MikeF]

Why the two pin lengths? Is one a narrower chain?

[MikeF]

I've always used the X series of KMC chains, rather than the Z series, but is there any practical difference? There is a price difference though.

[WrightsW5]

Should they cost more because of all the processes involved in making them, or less because machines are churning them out by the hundreds of thousands of links?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8j5-dC6_x8

[Brucey]

I've always used the X series of KMC chains, rather than the Z series, but is there any practical difference? There is a price difference though.

the most usual thing is that cheap chains (and the 'cheap' break point occurs in different places with different manufacturers) don't have chrome-hardened pins. Such chains last about half as long as the next step up on the quality ladder. Several Z series chains were 'cheap' but not all were. Z8S was pretty good value for money; roughly equivalent to SRAM PC-850.

X-series chains are meant to be more durable again but how much more durable I don't know.

cheers

[thelawnet]

enough fake KMC chains out there that they have this page on their website

https://www.kmcchain.eu/Fake_chains_The_price_of_succes

cheers

Looks like another good reason to stick to 8 and 9 speed. From a quick look at that link it looks like the fraudsters are little interested in them.
(Should add I only buy from proper places anyway)

There are entire categories of mass fraud producing millions of counterfeit chains, derailleurs, etc., some of which don't even exist as real products

Certainly 8-speed, single-speed etc. would not be immune.

China is such a den of IP theft that in certain markets (not the UK), it can be difficult to find products which are NOT counterfeit.




Here's some fake Shimano HG73's currently on sale on popular cybercrime website, Ebay.co.uk:




Dreadful rubbish, unbranded/cheap chains are one thing, but these fakes are awful rubbish and will wear out quickly.

Here's a fraud facilitated by Amazon

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zerone-Mountai ... 07B628F51/

'prime' delivery

[bazzo]

I got a kmc 9 speed chain for £8.99 from Merlin cycles. I did add a tyre to the order to get it over the £20.00 mark for free postage. 8 speeds were the same price.

[Brucey]

...Here's some fake Shimano HG73's currently on sale on popular cybercrime website, Ebay.co.uk:

It might help if you say what identifies these chains as fakes; IIRC CN-HG73B is a shimano chain that is manufactured by KMC, although this isn't necessarily made clear on the packaging (and nor is the 'B', because -I think- it is most often used as an OEM chain).

cheers

[thelawnet]

It might help if you say what identifies these chains as fakes; IIRC CN-HG73B is a shimano chain that is manufactured by KMC, although this isn't necessarily made clear on the packaging (and nor is the 'B', because -I think- it is most often used as an OEM chain).

cheers

CN-HG73 and CN-HG73B are two different chains.

See the image on KMC's website:

https://www.kmcchain.com/en/product/bic ... 3b-9-speed

where the chain is marked 'CN-HG73-B'

This is most clearly CN-HG73.

CN-HG73 was probably introduced in 2001:

http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Herstelle ... n2000.html to replace CN-HG72-9

It was for 105/Deore LX, 10-speed not yet being a thing in 2001 (so above HG-53 in some minor quality distinction)

An old catalog shows that it uses a 'special rivet' to join, which is as you'd expect from Shimano

https://productinfo.shimano.com/downloa ... CATION.pdf

The fake above uses a quicklink.

The exact details of CN-HG73B aren't clear, but it's certainly possible that it used a quicklink - the existence of HG73B is only documented en passant in Shimano's documentation

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-CS0003-07-ENG.pdf

However the problem with CN-HG73B is that it doesn't seem to be available anywhere - you'd expect to see few or no CN-HG73s and lots of CN-HG73B, but there aren't any CN-HG73B. It clearly isn't plausible that they would introduce a CN-HG73B, very plausibly using a quicklink, and then remove the B from the label, put it in ancient-looking packaging and churn it out by the million.

Although it still appears on the KMC website, it probably hasn't been made in a while.


Shimano do have an 8-speed quicklink chain (made by KMC) in their documentation. The quicklink is a separate part:



This is for HG71 (made by KMC), introduced in 2014.

They also have more conventional looking 11 & 12-speed quick links.





There is no Shimano 9 or 10-speed quick link.

The operation of the 8-speed & 11-speed links are documented in fulsome detail in the 'General Operations Manual':

https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/stor ... 24-ENG.pdf

(12-speed is in a separate document)

More generally I tend to assume that things in anachronistic packaging, priced lower than other products, are fake, so it was instantly obvious to me that this was extremely likely to be fake. Shimano chain packaging is pretty standardized nowadays



Also the widespread availability on fraud websites such as 'fulfilled by Amazon' & ebay and complete absence from the inventory of any reputable retailer is a good sign as well.

[thelawnet]

Probably this is the original HG73 packaging the fraudsters are going off:



These appear to be more recent genuine packaging






(note the 'connecting pin' icon, and the connecting pin information appears on the fraudulent packaging)

Indications here it has been faked for a decade or more.

http://nobmob.com/node/13945

And the chain was actually 8-speed!

Also the authentic 105 logo is perfectly straight:



In general we expect the top of glyphs in a given font to have the same height, however in practice because of the optical effect of curves they may actually go-over the baseline, yet appear perfectly straight:



Shimano tend to use fonts with flattened tops, which I suppose are/were intended to convey a sort of high-tech feel.

The 105 logo in the original fake box above is clearly not straight. The top of the 0, which should be a straight line, should be perfectly aligned with the 1 and the 5. It is not; the top is shorter.

The inability of fraudsters to accurately counterfeit packaging rather implies the actual product will be similarly slapdash.

[Brucey]

that is all very interesting, and I do agree with most of your observations. I only mentioned CN-HG73B because it illustrates that the World is a complicated place; I didn't even know this chain existed until quite recently. KMC have different information available on different sites; on one of their sites they have a 2020 OE catalogue pdf available for download which has more details of Shimano branded chains made by KMC, which currently includes CN-4601 (10s) , CN-HG73B (9s), CN-HG53 (9s), CN-HG71 (8s), CN-HG40 (8s), CN-NX10 (1/8"). Unfortunately it gives no indication of how these chains are usually joined.

Shimano's retail packaging is an odd one; it seems evident that at least some stuff is shipped to shimano's regional agents and distributors in 'OEM' type plastic wrapping only and is then repackaged (at some cost) in shimano's 'retail' packaging. [BTW this is little more than a source of annoyance for many bike shops with a thriving repair workshop; they end up having to buy more expensive parts and have to dispose of a mountain of entirely redundant packaging; the quantities are considerable.] In any event 'official' shimano retailing packaging does vary more than you might imagine; much shimano packaging in Europe appears to be locally sourced and I would presume the same is true for lots of other territories. This raises the possibility that genuine stuff gets sold into other territories/markets whilst packed in regional packaging or in unofficial packaging (because the parts were originally intended for OEM fitment).

OEM quality KMC chains I have seen have come 100 to a box and may be wrapped individually or in bags of five or ten (or something) but the bags are not marked in any way. They are (certainly in 8s form) supplied with a non-standard 'joining pin', which is short (no-break-off) and is already fitted to one end of the chain; this pin is not seen in any retail chain. The chains are also supplied in lengths that are not always available in retail form for 'the same' model of chain. I don't think I have seen these exact chains repackaged for retail sale, but I don't dismiss the possibility.

Recently I have seen unbranded chains in the UK which are supplied in plain packaging to the bike trade via one of the usual wholesalers. One LBS owner said he thought they might be KMC. I said "if they were KMC, they would say KMC on them". As it is the chains are a knock-off of an old model of cheap KMC chain; they say 'Z' on the side plate and they even have a model number 'Z50' or something marked too. But none of the side plates are marked KMC. Otherwise you would easily mistake them for a KMC chain; they are clearly meant to look like one in every other respect. There are lots of cheap chains from brands you have never heard of or which arrive unbranded which are being sold through the usual UK wholesale trade, in a kind of 'if you can't beat them, join them' way. These chains are probably fitted in repairs by LBSs who are desperate to reduce costs and therefore stay in business. They typically cost less than half what a decent chain would cost, and probably last about half as long too (at best).

I have acquired samples of some of these chains and I plan to do some hardness evaluation on them.

If I find one of these chains that is actually worth buying, I shall say so.

Don't hold your breath....

cheers