Cycling UK Forum

peetee wrote:Spa products look viable but the online information is pitiful. Poor res photo and no dimensions info.
I like the Genesis frame but I’m falling between sizes - I need a shorter top tube or a higher stack.
Titanium is starting to look attractive but everything has a carbon fork. I really don’t want carbon.

With frame and fork I'd go for the smaller of the two, and raise the stack using spacers.

What info are you missing on the Spa Audax? There's an old Cycle magazine review of the Ti version - https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default ... 103054.pdf, and the designer is a regular poster on this forum.

What size tyres do you expect to use. My Equilibrium will only go to 25's with mudguards.

mcshroom wrote:

peetee wrote:Spa products look viable but the online information is pitiful. Poor res photo and no dimensions info.
I like the Genesis frame but I’m falling between sizes - I need a shorter top tube or a higher stack.
Titanium is starting to look attractive but everything has a carbon fork. I really don’t want carbon.

With frame and fork I'd go for the smaller of the two, and raise the stack using spacers.

What info are you missing on the Spa Audax? There's an old Cycle magazine review of the Ti version - https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default ... 103054.pdf, and the designer is a regular poster on this forum.

I have the old Ti Audax and the main drawbacks were that it looked dull and the stickers peeled, and in mine at least it really only had enough clearance for 25mm tyres with guards. The current version looks a lot nicer (shiny frame with etched graphics), but I can't say whether the clearance is any better. A steel fork is possible.

I presume that your choices are influenced by already having a pair of 47mm-57mm drop calipers and wanting to use them with 25mm or 28mm tyres and mudguards. As you are doubtless aware, there was quite a choice of such audax type frames five to ten years ago, but that market has shrunk drastically, and it's not surprising that Spa and SJS are the last retailers selling rim braked steel audax frames.

My thoughts:

1. If you are not absolutely determined to have dual pivot calipers, I would suggest considering the Spa Tourer. I think that because they are designed to be suited for heavily laden touring, they are relatively stiff frames. I have a Spa Ti Touring and I find it noticeably stiffer than a 30+ year old 531ST Raleigh Randonneur, so much so that for unladen riding I like the Raleigh more. Given that you take a larger frame than me (24"?) and given some of your past comments about frame stiffness, not least your preference for the 708 Randonneur over the 531 versions, I suspect that you might find that a Spa Tourer frame suits you. I also think that the plain guage titanium version of the Tourer might be just that bit stiffer than the steel version with its butted tubes, but I've not ridden both and might be wrong about that.

I don't know how the Spa tourer and audax frames compare in terms of stiffness, but I would have expected the audax frames to be either no stiffer or less stiff, given they are not designed for heavily loaded touring. I think the audax frames have a shorter head tube for a given ETT length compared with the tourers, which is another reason why I think you would find the tourer to suit you better.

That said, it's a touring frame with corresponding wheelbase, long chainstays and trail, and it handles and steers like one. It's not going to be suitable if you want quicker handling (unless maybe you fit different forks, something which amediasatex has done with the Spa Ti Audax)

2. If your current bikes (all?) have 1" threaded steerers and forks, then obviously any new frame with a 1 1/8" threadless steerer is going to be stiffer at the front, and both the Spa audax and tourer steel forks are provided with low rider braze ons, which suggests that the blades must be thicker than would otherwise be necessary.

3. Given Thorn/SJS have short top tube options, it does sound like one of those might suit you better. They are more expensive than Spa, but I think that's irrelevant if one fits you and the other doesn't, and the finish of the SJS/Thorn bikes is probably better (e.g. Dupont Imron paint).

4. As said above, Bob Jackson if you are lucky enough that they will still take an order so close to closing. NB BJ's 'End to End' model is the one that takes 47mm-57mm calipers, and obviously they give the option of a threaded steerer if preferred. Pilgrim Cycles in Godalming sell bikes with re-badged BJ (and Spa) frames and I guess might have one in your size, even if only a display/demonstrator model, although they might only want to sell it as a complete bike.

5. If you do go to Dave Yates to get your Raleigh repaired, I would seriously consider getting a new frame from him as well whilst you are there. It would cost much more than a Spa, Genesis or SJS frame, but if none of those frames are actually what you want and you would never really be satisfied with them, then buying one of them could be an expensive false economy. You have become accustomed to riding some very nice high quality frames, and it might be that you would never be satisfied with what is now available off the shelf.

6. Similarly for getting what you want, I would suggest considering Lee Cooper.

7. Lasty on the subject of dual pivot brakes and tyre size, I think the combination of 47mm-57mm dual pivots with mudguards is not necessarily one that is worth preserving and persevering to keep. I think a rim brake that will accommodate a 32mm - or even 35mm - tyre makes more sense, especially now that we are starting to see tyres like GP5000 in 32mm, so would choose either Tektro R559 dual pivot calipers or cantilevers/V brakes. I have a spare pair of BR650 calipers which I picked up years ago when they were dirt cheap in a sale, and I recently realised that I would probably never use them, because I would not now buy a frame that limited me to 25mm or 28mm tyres.

You only live once.

If you know what you like then you may as well stick with it. FWIW I have had bikes which only take 23s (or 25s with a real squeeze) and mudguards and that is too narrow some of the time. But it happens that some of those framesets are also fantastic in other ways so they get to stay. One of my most used framesets is something of a 'beater'/training bike and I have run it most with 25-28mm tyres, although it was originally designed with 32mm tyres in mind. For the past fifteen years or so I have used it with a '35mm' (actual 32mm width) rear tyre and I am thinking of going back to 28s at both ends or 28mm rear, 25mm front.

Left field suggestions; there are lots of lightly used frames out there which might float your boat. Dawes Audax, Hewitt Chiltern, (aka Byercycles, Pearson) Roberts Audax.... the list is almost endless. Mercian make some nice frames too but they are a little overpriced used, and the Audaxy ones are too often built for stupid short reach campag brakes which means the clearances are needlessly tight.

Personally I don't care much for 1-1/8" steel forks, very sloping top tubes, and A-head headsets; not on a bike like that. However if you do go down that route the stack dimension is arguably less important than with a frame meant for a quill stem; with an Ahead there are lots of options involving spacers and angled stems; arguably it is going to look rubbish anyway so in for a penny....

cheers

Folks, thanks for your very detailed responses.
Yes, I am a fussy bugger and rather critical/ analytical. While I am happy with off-the-peg at the moment it would be sizeable chunk of dosh that would all but eliminate the possibility of custom for a few years to come. Whilst it would be subject to all weathers it is tempting to get The Bike For All Seasons/Reasons by splashing out on a bike fit and made to measure frame as I am not certain I am going to be able to ride some of my other bikes any great distances as the years advance.
Whatever, I have something rideable at present and a generous offer to help with a damaged frame so I think a few weeks of careful thought lie ahead.
Cheers.

slowster wrote:I presume that your choices are influenced by already having a pair of 47mm-57mm drop calipers and wanting to use them with 25mm or 28mm tyres and mudguards. As you are doubtless aware, there was quite a choice of such audax type frames five to ten years ago, but that market has shrunk drastically, and it's not surprising that Spa and SJS are the last retailers selling rim braked steel audax frames.

The Equilibrium mentioned above is designed for deep drop calipers (my 2012 model has the excellent Tektro R359; sadly current models seem to have been downgraded to Promax R477.) As cycleruk says, they will happily accommodate 25mm tyres with mudguards, but 28mm would be tight. Genesis' 2021 catalogue still includes the rim-braked Equilibrium both as frameset and full bike. So Spa and SJS aren't quite the last; it's just that manufacturers don't necessarily use the "A" word.

It's true that rim-braked bikes with good clearance are becoming a rarity, simply because this is one case where disc brakes make more sense. If you want a road bike that can take both mudguards and 28 or even 32mm tyres there's a lot of choice out there now.

It should be remembered that Audax bikes weren't always blessed with good clearance: my 25-year-old 531C Audax bike can only just manage 25C and mudguards, and I had to fit modern brake calipers even to get to that. These things come and go.

Getting a good position on a sloping top tube frame is not that difficult. When I got my Spa Ti Tourer frameset I worked out that I could get my perfect position on either of two sizes, and I went for the smaller because the stand-over height would have been a bit touch and go with the larger. There is absolutely no way that having a bespoke made-to-measure frame would have made the fit and feel of the bike any better. It would have been an absolute waste of money. Unless you can't get what you want off-the-peg, paying for made-to-measure is pointless. I have had a couple of bespoke frames before and they were not the best rides I've had.

pwa wrote:Getting a good position on a sloping top tube frame is not that difficult. When I got my Spa Ti Tourer frameset I worked out that I could get my perfect position on either of two sizes, and I went for the smaller because the stand-over height would have been a bit touch and go with the larger. There is absolutely no way that having a bespoke made-to-measure frame would have made the fit and feel of the bike any better. It would have been an absolute waste of money. Unless you can't get what you want off-the-peg, paying for made-to-measure is pointless. I have had a couple of bespoke frames before and they were not the best rides I've had.

+1

When I bought the Spa Tourer, John P asked how long I wanted the steerer so they could cut it to suit.
Given that and enough spacers (provided you don't mind the look as previously mentioned) and with a suitable stem, you should be able to get the correct fit albeit with a bit of trial and error with the stem (I have a box full of them!)

I believe the widespread falling out of popularity with custom frames was as much to do with the flexibility that threadless 'aheadsets' gave than the obvious extra costs involved.

There is nothing wrong with off the peg, I too have had some excellent ready to roll frames. The problem is me. I’m a bike snob and love the individual approach and result.
As it is, this morning I have managed to build up an old Orbit touring frame as an everyday bike, when it stops raining I can give it a few miles to see if it will take regular punishment. If it’s OK i don’t need to worry about a replacement for the moment. In my searches since I started this thread it has become obvious that several builders offer a frame building course. This has long been a dream of mine. 30 years ago I designed my mountain bike frame. I still ride it and it gives me a great deal of pride and satisfaction. So it’s high time I designed and built a road frame.
Of course, with the present social restrictions it might be a few months into the future.