Boris's Brain is missing

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by slowster »

Psamathe wrote: 23 Jan 2022, 4:09pm
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/partygate-boris-johnson-sue-gray-investigation-b1998921.html wrote:No 10 officials admit holding back information from partygate inquiry after being ‘frightened into silence’...
One source claimed that after being asked to remove information, they subsequently deleted evidence of that party.

They said they were also fearful that, having removed material, they could face censure: “I did the wrong thing and actually deleted stuff.”

“Everyone’s terrified. It’s a witch hunt,” another source told The Independent. “There’s been a culture of fear [in the office] every day since the first party story broke.”

Another source added: "I’ve held back from sharing evidence, it’s too risky. And I’d have to explain why I’d deleted some stuff, which would mean saying I’d felt intimidated."
...
Ian
In most organisations with large numbers of employees, it will be the norm that:

- there will be clear rules NOT to destroy potential evidence of wrongdoing
- in particular, if something occurs that has become, or is likely to become, the subject of investigation by the police or a statutory regulator, it will be standard practice for all staff to be sent emails reminding them of the rules and law, and ordering them to PRESERVE all relevant records
- the following will be investigated and be liable to result in disciplinary measures: bullying, sexual abuse and harassment, financial misconduct such as accepting bribes/high value 'gifts' and improper use of funds, discrimination on grounds of sex or religion.

Although it will be common for large organisations to have very similar rules and procedures in place for the above, there will inevitably be plenty of individual instances of those rules being ignored or not applied properly by senior managers, whether to protect themselves, their friends, or out of a misguided desire to protect the organisation. Neverthless, increasingly the rules and procedures will tend to be observed, and will as a consequence deter wrongdoing occurring in the first place. And that is the real motivation for organisations to have such rules and procedures, because they ultimately help to protect the organisation and are in its long term interest.

Parliament and the top echelons of Government seem to be about 20+ years behind, and that seems to be because the perpetrators know/expect they will get away with it, and be protected by their colleagues (and in the case of MPs by the whips). Consequently we have
- senior Government and possibly civil service personnel instructing junior employees to delete evidence
- the blatant corruption of Owen Paterson, and the equally blatant efforts by his friends to stop him being punished
- the bullying by Priti Patel of junior civil servants, and the appalling failure of the PM to act on the report which found her guilty of bullying
- the reinstatement of the Welsh MP Rob Roberts by the Conservative Party despite repeatedly sexually harassing a member of his staff
- the reported discrimination against Nusrat Ghani
The above are just those examples which come immediately to mind or happen to be in the news at the moment, i.e. I doubt that they are isolated examples. Rather it appears that there is a very permissive attitude in senior Government and Parliament to behaviour that elsewhere would result in a finding of gross misconduct and a person's career being ended.
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Stevek76 »

Email services like Microsoft exchange offer various 'hold' policy settings that retain emails in an archive even if they are deleted from a user's own mailbox, would have thought such things were standard for large organisations, including the government.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Psamathe »

Stevek76 wrote: 23 Jan 2022, 8:01pm Email services like Microsoft exchange offer various 'hold' policy settings that retain emails in an archive even if they are deleted from a user's own mailbox, would have thought such things were standard for large organisations, including the government.
I think I read (from memory) this instance of deletion of evidence is from WhatsApp - seems popular amongst political classes and no audit trail, no official record and completely open to abuse (which maybe explains its popularity?).

Ian
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 23 Jan 2022, 8:16pm
Stevek76 wrote: 23 Jan 2022, 8:01pm Email services like Microsoft exchange offer various 'hold' policy settings that retain emails in an archive even if they are deleted from a user's own mailbox, would have thought such things were standard for large organisations, including the government.
I think I read (from memory) this instance of deletion of evidence is from WhatsApp - seems popular amongst political classes and no audit trail, no official record and completely open to abuse (which maybe explains its popularity?).
It's come up several times in the recent judicial reviews, and there's plenty of guidance on unacceptable behaviour, including from the Information Commissioner.

There are rumours about Gray being rather keen on destruction in her previous career.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Jdsk »

"Boris Johnson has ordered a formal inquiry into allegations by the Conservative MP Nusrat Ghani that she was sacked as a minister after being told her “Muslimness” was “making colleagues uncomfortable”."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-claims

To be carried out by... the Cabinet Office.

But still not as bad, stupid and inappropriate as Conservative Campaign Headquarters which, is where the Prime Minister suggested.

Jonathan

PS: Who's on duty today for Latin tags?
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Jdsk »

Image

Don't we all?

Jonathan
Pebble
Posts: 1934
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Pebble »

Will you all be accepting Sue Grey's report as fact, or will you only be accepting it if it confirms your own preconceived beliefs ?
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 8:47am Will you all be accepting Sue Grey's (sic) report as fact, or will you only be accepting it if it confirms your own preconceived beliefs ?
Which version... the full report or the bit that's made public?

Thanks

Jonathan
Pebble
Posts: 1934
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by Pebble »

either or both
djnotts
Posts: 3036
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by djnotts »

Expect the evidence trail will be fully deleted when he presses the red button once Putin calls him from Calais!
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5814
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Pebble wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 8:47am Will you all be accepting Sue Grey's report as fact, or will you only be accepting it if it confirms your own preconceived beliefs ?
The terms of reference for the investigation are being played.

Johnson's line will be "cleared of illegality so accept apology and move on"

Gray report does not have assessment of legal position in terms of reference, so this conclusion is inevitable.

Gray report is largely irrelevant in terms of Johnson's position: we already know from his own statements that he was clearly in breach of the rules as understood by the country at the time.

So, I'd absolutely accept facts of Gray report, but absolutely not accept Johnson interpretation of it.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by reohn2 »

Pebble wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 8:47am Will you all be accepting Sue Grey's report as fact, or will you only be accepting it if it confirms your own preconceived beliefs ?
I would accept the truth as the truth from an honest and truthful person,but won't accept anything from the lips or pen of someone who's a stranger to it.
Johnson and his government in total are strangers to the truth!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by francovendee »

Does anyone else think or hope that this period in UK politics will be viewed as shameful?
I just hope what we're seeing now doesn't become the norm and acceptable.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Boris's Brain is missing

Post by thirdcrank »

IMO it seems to be a continuation of a downward trend, although social media may have changed perceptions and the availability of evidence.
Post Reply