Boris's Brain is missing

[Psamathe]

Concern about the past is more relevant in terms of the recent past and "direction of movement". Hope for a better future, for UK achieving better reputation around the world etc. depends on the direction te country is moving and is dependent on our political classed. In recent history we (through our elected politicians) have given clear statement that we do not feel obligated by even recent international agreements and treaties, that we resist and fail to live up to international law, that we treat others in deperate need as criminals to be sent to other countries, that ethical considerations are irrelevant, that our leaders will happily lie to achieve their personal aims, etc., etc.

Would you trust another country with such a recent track record and direction of movement?

Ian

[reohn2]

You mean like Russia?
You know the country that funded Brexit through it's network of oligarchs,at least one of which is now sits in the House of Lords?
Along with the likes of Arron Banks's money and who's Russian connections are now proven,etc,etc,etc.....

[reohn2]

Andrew Marr (2.19minutes LBC):- https://youtu.be/bjnSGNFqamo

[Jdsk]

But the many good things about Britain resulted from people seeing the things that needed improving, making a fuss about them and getting improvements made.
It does nobody any good to keep quiet about evils.

Well said.

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

Cugel, yes you are wrong...you have an odd twisted view of how things actually are.

I was brought up in a cockney working class family, solid labour voters. I lived in the S Wales valleys for 5 years then 44 years in an area where at every election Labour lost its deposit.

You can paint Tory voters as self centred uncaring folk but I know that the opposite is actually often true.

Like many I remember the 70s, thats when the country went down the pan and we are still living with that legacy. Some people who still live in these areas still have a very twisted view. They live in the past where everything was run by agitator bigmouthed bullys. People dont want that again which is why they vote Tory. The labour party run by the dud, with hard left agitators looking over his shoulder isnt an attractive alternative.

Not a good place we are at.

Al

[thirdcrank]

Al

I think you have misunderstood some of what's been said.

In particular, I don't think the criticism has been of tory voters, but rather their party's leadership and those most directly influencing that leadership

[al_yrpal]

Al

I think you have misunderstood some of what's been said.

In particular, I don't think the criticism has been of tory voters, but rather their party's leadership and those most directly influencing that leadership

Yes, but the acusation is that anyone who has supported the Tories is either evil or dim. As I have said many times we have a truly sub standard PM and no obvious better replacement. This happened because of the minority using every means possible to foil the will of the people. Its a mess.

Al

[Jdsk]

Yes, but the acusation is that anyone who has supported the Tories is either evil or dim.

Please could you give some recent examples of that.

Thanks

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

Yes, but the acusation is that anyone who has supported the Tories is either evil or dim.

Please could you give some recent examples of that.

Thanks

Jonathan

Read the thread and you will see them, particularly the personal ones

Al

[thirdcrank]

Al

I don't want you to feel as though I have my tanks on your lawn but you really don't seem to see the lack of internal logic in what you say.

I also don't want to put words in your mouth or attribute to you views that you don't hold but as one brief example I think you believe that capitalism is generally a GOOD THING but that trades unions are the source of much of our trouble today.

But, you complain about shoddy building standards which are arguably a direct result of the pursuit of profit, yet trades unions trying to maintain the standards of traditional "trades" are using restrictive practices for devious reasons.

[Jdsk]

Yes, but the acusation is that anyone who has supported the Tories is either evil or dim.

Please could you give some recent examples of that.

Read the thread and you will see them, particularly the personal ones

I checked before posting.

Please could you give some examples.

Thanks

Jonathan

[Cugel]

Cugel, yes you are wrong...you have an odd twisted view of how things actually are.

I was brought up in a cockney working class family, solid labour voters. I lived in the S Wales valleys for 5 years then 44 years in an area where at every election Labour lost its deposit.

You can paint Tory voters as self centred uncaring folk but I know that the opposite is actually often true.

Like many I remember the 70s, thats when the country went down the pan and we are still living with that legacy. Some people who still live in these areas still have a very twisted view. They live in the past where everything was run by agitator bigmouthed bullys. People dont want that again which is why they vote Tory. The labour party run by the dud, with hard left agitators looking over his shoulder isnt an attractive alternative.

Not a good place we are at.

Al

Ah Al, so "us & them" you are! And seemingly stuck in the groove of an old 45 put out by the right-leaning mass media about the evil union doings of the 70s being the cause of all ills and still waiting under the bed to ambush us. Haven't you considered history since then? DIdn't you notice the antics of Thatcher and all those (including so-called New Labour) who followed her? Not a union in sight!

Like you, I know many who vote Tory but are fundamentally good people. (Not fundamentally bad, anyway). But also like you, they seem unable to step out of their "I always vote Tory" groove, no matter how unconservative the Tory party becomes. And just presently, the Tory party is more like the mafia than a group of politicians tasking themselves with looking after the national interest - or any interests other than those of themselves and the spivs who bankroll them. They're destroying everything of the Britain we both grew up in, "before your very eyes".

Nor is there any red-eyed "leftist" opposition or political party now in this country. Nor is there likely to be. But isn't all that old left-right tribalism as irrelevant and as useless as the older dichotomies between various religions or between those who are pink and those who are brown? The hackneyed tropes of "the red-blue clown show" are surely as relevant to today's issues as astrological calculations and their meaningless advices.

Cugel

PS Do you like my new Keynes quote?

[al_yrpal]

Cugel, last time I voted was for an Independent. Before that it was Labour and yes I have voted Tory on occasion but I am by no means a dyed in wool Tory as some folk here seem to want to define me.

You seem to me to dress up things in waffle as an excuse for plain speaking. To be better understood its best to be more succinct. They teach you that stuff in cockneyland

Al

[Cugel]

Cugel, last time I voted was for an Independent. Before that it was Labour and yes I have voted Tory on occasion but I am by no means a dyed in wool Tory as some folk here seem to want to define me.

You seem to me to dress up things in waffle as an excuse for plain speaking. To be better understood its best to be more succinct. They teach you that stuff in cockneyland

Al

Read me Keynes thing, man!

The trouble wif that cockerknee "plain speaking" is that it misses the 34,879 nuances. As my granddaughter would tell you, "I think you'll find it's more complicated than that".

Did you vote for that Corbyn then? I rarely voted in my yoof, not seeing an enormous difference between the red and blues of the time. None of them wanted to do much to rid us of the class system and its greedymen, no matter what they all said. Even then, I yearned for another Attlee.

After a while I began to vote but only against this or that party, rather than for one. (This was after Thatcher introduced us to hobgoblin politics - or the politics of Mordor, is it). My cunning plan made no difference at all to anything that mattered. Same old madness, getting gradually worse as folk forgot just how bad normal C20th was and can be again in the C21st. WWII concentrated voter minds quite a lot but soon the political hobgoblins were back in business. (Or was it business was back in them)?

Now I vote for Plaid Cymru, not an option for yous in Ingurland. I vote for them for two reasons:

* They have little power so their MPs tend to pursue matters of interest to their constituents rather than playing inter-party or cross-party war games.

* Helping get The PC candidate in also keeps the Hobgoblin parties out.

But should PC become dominant in Wales, PC will probably go hobgoblin like the rest. One of their policies to generate a new Welsh economic miracle seems to be to borrow loads from the usual banking and venture capital suspects! Cuh!! What then? I've no idea.

Cugel, a voter-mote in a gathering political storm.

[PedallingSquares]

Throwing around words like "remainiacs" and "hard left" does not help your case.

That appears to be Als default setting.