Who's had the vaccine?

[thirdcrank]

Were there any points from the BMA in addition to those mentioned in the recent posts above?

Thanks

Jonathan

My summary of the line you have taken is that those who understand this ( "the experts") are ok with delaying the second jab. This isn't an attempt to put words in anyone's mouth, just what I understood.

Now, AIUI, the BMA is the nearest thing doctors have to a trade union and may have various targets in its sights, but I assume that among the membership of the BMA there are plenty of people with plenty of expertise here. So, from my POV, this suggests that medics are not unanimously agreed that the delays is ok and the dissenters are not easily dismissed.

[Cowsham]

Unfortunately there is as yet no clear evidence that having been vaccinated makes someone a lot less likely to transmit the virus, so it is just possible that transmission will continue at a high rate even when most people are vaccinated. The vaccines seem to protect most people from becoming ill from the virus, but may not prevent people being a host to it.

This has to be viewed in light of the fact that once the most vulnerable have had (or been offered) a vaccine, we can expect restrictions and general behaviour to relax considerably. The virus may, or may not, persist quite readily in that environment.

I think that's where we're at now -- the biggest problem for the government is the hospitals getting clogged up with very ill people, so if we can get the first dose of vaccine to give us at least a fire break on that front then there's a chance we can get on top of this situation.

It's a bit of a gamble but it seems the only option our incompetent government has.

[Psamathe]

....
This has to be viewed in light of the fact that once the most vulnerable have had (or been offered) a vaccine, we can expect restrictions and general behaviour to relax considerably. The virus may, or may not, persist quite readily in that environment.

Personally I think that would be unwise. Reports from ICU seem to keep saying how this wave they are seeing far younger patients. Then add that current data shows 10% of Covid sufferers will suffer "long Covid" (across the age spectrum) - that's a lot of the population potentially suffering long term debilitating symptoms.

Ian

[Psamathe]

More reports today

[Professor] Harnden[JVCI] added that data from the Moderna vaccine, which is based on a similar approach to the Pfizer/BioNTech jab, produced 90% immunity in participants two months after receiving one dose.

The comment could be a reference to a JCVI document that showed the efficacy of the Moderna jab reached 80% among almost 1,000 people followed up between one and 108 days after their first dose, and just over 90% when assessing Covid cases at least 14 days after the first jab.

However, the document urged caution. “There appears to be some protection against Covid-19 disease following one dose; however, these data do not provide sufficient information about longer term protection beyond 28 days after a single dose,” it stated.

and (same link)

The British Society for Immunology (BSI) said that while it accepted the rationale for the 12-week dosing interval in the current circumstances, there needed to be greater clarity about how the potential effect of this interval was being assessed, noting that while Public Health England had published a Covid-19 vaccine surveillance strategy, details about how the immune response is to be monitored remained unclear.

“We are assured studies are ongoing, but whether they are the types of studies as a body of immunologists we’d like to see there is still a question mark,” said Dr Doug Brown, the CEO of the BSI, adding that such studies were important in order to explore how best to use the vaccines now and in the future.

Others have gone further, calling for large randomised control trials to be set up to explore how different dosing schedules might affect issues ranging from the long-term effect on Covid-related hospital cases to the potential impact on long Covid.

Ian

[merseymouth]

Good Morning, A new twist in the Vaccine Saga? On page one of todays Daily Telegraph it carries a story that it finding instances of vaccine jaggers giving shots to friends and family members who are not in the vulnerable groups? "They would only go to waste" is the reason given!
I have not seen this personally so don't shout cite, but it is reported that Health "bosses" have insisted that drawing up a "Friends and family list" helps avoid waste by ensuring that they never throw away any Pfizer vaccine.
As I see it that can't be laid at the door of the Government, apart from possibly not coming down hard on cronyism, which they should do, "Black Market" & "Spivs" return?
Let us hope that examples are made of those who have abused their position to carry out these disgraceful practises!
I say this as a 72 year-old medical wreck who would certainly react quickly to a call to offer my arm for Jagging! MM

[Psamathe]

Good Morning, A new twist in the Vaccine Saga? On page one of todays Daily Telegraph it carries a story that it finding instances of vaccine jaggers giving shots to friends and family members who are not in the vulnerable groups? "They would only go to waste" is the reason given!
I have not seen this personally so don't shout cite, but it is reported that Health "bosses" have insisted that drawing up a "Friends and family list" helps avoid waste by ensuring that they never throw away any Pfizer vaccine.
As I see it that can't be laid at the door of the Government, apart from possibly not coming down hard on cronyism, which they should do, "Black Market" & "Spivs" return?
Let us hope that examples are made of those who have abused their position to carry out these disgraceful practises!
I say this as a 72 year-old medical wreck who would certainly react quickly to a call to offer my arm for Jagging! MM

I was chatting to a friend in Austria over the weekend and she was saying how she's registered for her vaccine (in Austria). She's in her 30's so has a wait but part of her registration was declaring that she is available for vaccination at very short notice (e.g. 1hr) i.e. box on the form "Can you come in a very short notice Yes/No".

You don't need "Friends & Family" lists to find people at short notice. I think it's actually worse than it sounds 'cos vaccinating a Friend or Family now must guarantee a booster in 12 weeks time when there might not be "space vaccine" and it will be a fit healthy 25 year old bouncing out an older medically vulnerable person from getting their 1st vaccination.

Ian

[kwackers]

Good Morning, A new twist in the Vaccine Saga? On page one of todays Daily Telegraph it carries a story that it finding instances of vaccine jaggers giving shots to friends and family members who are not in the vulnerable groups? "They would only go to waste" is the reason given!<snip>

The Pfizer is the one that I think this generally refers to because it can't be stored for very long.
At the end of the day you book shots for 100 people and 90 turn up. Not long ago there were similar stories but of the vaccine being thrown away, now it's of "friends and family".

TBH I'm not sure what the answer is, if someone doesn't turn up for the shot you need a fallback list of people that can make it to the centre on very short notice.
Probably just as difficult at the moment is managing such a list and the people on it in the middle of everything else.

is it an abuse of the system? If they're charging people then definitely, otherwise I don't think so.
Might not be the best system but compared to some of what's going on it's well under my radar.

[rjb]

My neighbour told me her son had had the jab. He's a research assistant at a lab next door to a London hospital and not in the vulnerable or older age groups At the end of the day they were giving the jab to anyone willing to queue up for it rather than see it wasted, non frontline healthcare staff plus others in the know. I don't have any problem with this even though some may call it queue jumping. I'm still waiting for it as I'm in tier 5. May even have a flutter at the same time as it's being delivered at the racecourse in Taunton.

[DevonDamo]

It's inevitable that they're going to have some unused vaccine at the end of each day, because there will always be 'no-shows', especially when snow/ice play hell with transport. It would risk a PR disaster by 'factoring in' these no-shows by booking in more appointments than they've thawed-out shots for because it would be unacceptable to have people show up for a pre-booked appointment only to be told they've used all the shots that they've thawed.

Therefore, I'm happy for them to drag people off the streets and give them these unused shots. Of course, I'm envious of anyone who gets it this way, but I'm not that petty that I'd rather see these shots poured down the sink - every time a person gets a shot means the post office queue shuffling one place forward towards the counter...

One improvement that they could make would be to set up a register of people who are within 30 minutes of a vaccination centre, so they could be notified by SMS/email of a 10-minute window in which they can phone up and book a last-minute shot.

[KTHSullivan]

It's inevitable that they're going to have some unused vaccine at the end of each day, because there will always be 'no-shows', especially when snow/ice play hell with transport. It would risk a PR disaster by 'factoring in' these no-shows by booking in more appointments than they've thawed-out shots for because it would be unacceptable to have people show up for a pre-booked appointment only to be told they've used all the shots that they've thawed.

Therefore, I'm happy for them to drag people off the streets and give them these unused shots. Of course, I'm envious of anyone who gets it this way, but I'm not that petty that I'd rather see these shots poured down the sink - every time a person gets a shot means the post office queue shuffling one place forward towards the counter...

One improvement that they could make would be to set up a register of people who are within 30 minutes of a vaccination centre, so they could be notified by SMS/email of a 10-minute window in which they can phone up and book a last-minute shot.

+1

[merseymouth]

Hello again, Nice to see responses.
No wind up from me over this, just a great sadness that we keep getting in a ruddy mess over so many issues.
I live within a very short walk from a NHS Drop-in Centre, within walking distance of my G.P.'s surgery, no car, so might have difficulty if sent far from home for the Jag.
But as I live in a major conurbation such should not happen, but it does? Some of my medical appointments send me way off piste, hard to get to, but we get them to re-direct me to a more accessible hospital.
I have heard nothing about any potential vaccine date, so do worry a bit. The same must apply to a number of vulnerable folk, but if they called me on the dog & bone I'd get my skates on to get stabbed! With the Pfizer dose they have 5 days at fridge setting, so there must surely be enough wriggle room to avoid waste and increase protection for many more?
In a rural setting there will certainly be issues, but they are surely not beyond remedy! I well remember the mass X-Ray process in the 1950's, also the mass Polio immunization process, so we should be able to do much better in this day and age?
Why have we not created a system where the living register the need for a Jag, rather than rely on a system whereby folk who may even be already dead get contacted in a speculative way by a mismanaged existing system? I got my Covid tests that way, so why not do the same for the vaccine? MM

* Spoy on Devondamo

[Psamathe]

My neighbour told me her son had had the jab. He's a research assistant at a lab next door to a London hospital and not in the vulnerable or older age groups At the end of the day they were giving the jab to anyone willing to queue up for it rather than see it wasted, non frontline healthcare staff plus others in the know. I don't have any problem with this even though some may call it queue jumping. I'm still waiting for it as I'm in tier 5. May even have a flutter at the same time as it's being delivered at the racecourse in Taunton. :lol:

Trouble is it is actually double queue jumping. Queue jumping now and again in 12 weeks (when they need their booster) jumping another older and/or medically vulnerable person (when they don't have vaccine left over).

Why can't they put out an open request to anybody in the next priority group to give their phone number if they can attend at very short notice (i.e. build a list of short notice priority people) - that would of course require some sort of organisation (e.g. Austria can do it, plan for it in advance but UK can't).

And such stories further increase the general impression of disorganisation and unfairness, further eroding credibility in the Government's handling of things.

Ian

[Syd]

I’ve seen in a number of places people raising valid concerns over the vaccine been wasted due to non- arrival (DNA) of individuals and therefore excess doses potentially being disposed of at the end of the day.

I know, from direct contact, those working at vacation centres are given DNA figures close to the end of the day and encouraged to use personal contacts who can arrive NOW to use up these unused doses. These vaccines a finite storage limit.

Said individuals, who do turn up, are automatically given the next 12 week appointment that would also have gone to waste.

Ok it means some people potentially jumping the queue but, personally, I’d rather that than the vaccine going to waste.

[Psamathe]

....
Said individuals, who do turn up, are automatically given the next 12 week appointment that would also have gone to waste.
....

Why would the one in 12 weeks have gone to waste rather than being booked by somebody in the then top priority group for their 1st injection?

Ian

[Syd]

....
Said individuals, who do turn up, are automatically given the next 12 week appointment that would also have gone to waste.
....

Why would the one in 12 weeks have gone to waste rather than being booked by somebody in the then top priority group for their 1st injection?

Ian

Appointments for first and second doses are tied together. AiUI the system does not release the second date upon unfullillment of the first appointment.