Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Oldjohnw »

Toyota Rav is hardly a Chelsea tractor.
John
Stevek76
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Stevek76 »

kwackers wrote:But I look at Manchester where they're trying to introduce a clean air zone and you'll struggle to find anyone that supports it.


Really? Or is that just the impression from the loud angry car lobby? Perceived hostility to any anti-car measure is always overstated, though hard to get a measure on how much short of any properly conducted polling (consultations are not this).

That said, my own opinion is that defra's approach to these has been poor and these zones are not a very equitable way of dealing with the problem particularly with private cars (which somehow manchester has managed to wriggle out of charging I note) Whilst the poorest have limited to no car access, the poorer are often over-reliant on them and most likely to own non-compliant cars. Meanwhile a typical euro 6 diesel Chelsea tractor still chucks out a ton of NOx, even post cheatgate (the emission rates used in the modelling for these zones puts the average E6d Car as slightly worse for nox than the avg E3 petrol) and somehow gets a free pass? A blanket charge would be fairer, substantial reallocation of road space far better still since it actually provides alternatives.

CAZs were a poorly thought out knee jerk response to having been sued and lost three times at the high court mostly intended to be low effort and devolving as much responsibility/blame to councils as possible.

The supplementary support for the zones is also derisory, though most councils haven't helped themselves here by banging on about scrappage schemes which it has been clear from the start that defra/dft were going to be highly resistant to. The best approach would have likely to be to proposed and demonstrate that the route to compliance in the shortest possible time was to do a 'go dutch' approach. A council doing that back in 2016/17 could have had defra over a barrel for a decent wad of cash. Instead, most of them decided to go around in circles arguing over what category of CAZ they did or didn't need and trying to wriggle out of doing something.
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atoz
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by atoz »

Oldjohnw wrote:Toyota Rav is hardly a Chelsea tractor.
A slight exaggeration I admit, but really why do you need to drive one of those in London? Oh I get it, it's a hybrid so thats OK...really? Most of us round where I live don't need £30000 worth of hybrid SUV, any more than they need one of those expensive lawyers suits.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Oldjohnw »

atoz wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Toyota Rav is hardly a Chelsea tractor.
A slight exaggeration I admit, but really why do you need to drive one of those in London? Oh I get it, it's a hybrid so thats OK...really?


I hold no candle for SUVs but a Rav is pretty modest. It may be that he leaves the capital occasionally.
John
atoz
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by atoz »

Oldjohnw wrote:
atoz wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Toyota Rav is hardly a Chelsea tractor.
A slight exaggeration I admit, but really why do you need to drive one of those in London? Oh I get it, it's a hybrid so thats OK...really?


I hold no candle for SUVs but a Rav is pretty modest. It may be that he leaves the capital occasionally.


Yes it's modest alright, so modest I couldn't afford half of one on my salary, and that's a lot more than some in London have to survive on.
Stevek76
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Stevek76 »

Oldjohnw wrote:I hold no candle for SUVs but a Rav is pretty modest. It may be that he leaves the capital occasionally.


Still pointless. There is zero practical use for SUVs, all they do is add weight (hence road damage), height (more lethal to pedestrians and especially children) and inefficiency.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Oldjohnw »

atoz wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
atoz wrote: A slight exaggeration I admit, but really why do you need to drive one of those in London? Oh I get it, it's a hybrid so thats OK...really?


I hold no candle for SUVs but a Rav is pretty modest. It may be that he leaves the capital occasionally.


Yes it's modest alright, so modest I couldn't afford half of one on my salary, and that's a lot more than some in London have to survive on.


I deplore inequality and excessive consumerism but I don't really buy into the idea that because some cannot afford something then no-one should. I don't have a large enough garden to grow all my veg. It isn't fair that some people on this forum do have!

And what do we know anyway? Did he buy it second hand? Is it leased?
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 21 Dec 2020, 2:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
John
Oldjohnw
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Oldjohnw »

Stevek76 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I hold no candle for SUVs but a Rav is pretty modest. It may be that he leaves the capital occasionally.


Still pointless. There is zero practical use for SUVs, all they do is add weight (hence road damage), height (more lethal to pedestrians and especially children) and inefficiency.


I am not at all interested in owning an SUV. But what someone spends money on is none of my business.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 22 Dec 2020, 7:09am, edited 1 time in total.
John
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Vorpal »

Stevek76 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I hold no candle for SUVs but a Rav is pretty modest. It may be that he leaves the capital occasionally.


Still pointless. There is zero practical use for SUVs, all they do is add weight (hence road damage), height (more lethal to pedestrians and especially children) and inefficiency.

I almost agree with the point in general, but the Rav4 has a much better rating safety rating for vulnerable road users (pedestrians and cyclists) than many smaller cars.

Euro NCAP rating of Rav4 is 85%
Euro NCAP rating of a Fiat Punto is 52%
Euro NCAP rating of a VW Polo is 75%

There is zero practical use for SUVs in cities, and most other places people use them. There are practical uses for them as work vehicles, though probably not in nearly as many circumstances as they are actually used.

I have used them as work vehicles in the past, and honestly they were absolutely the best vehicle for the use at the time. We needed to carry multiple people, plus tools & tractor parts, and sometimes off-road. And I can understand why some farmers would select them over other vehicles.

That said, I really do think that there are very few circumstances where SUVs couldn't be replaced with electric vans, cars, or public transport and bicycles, and 99% of SUVs taken off the road.
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Stevek76
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Stevek76 »

Ah yes. I was meaning for urban contexts.

Regarding pedestrian risks, I had in mind some of the research indicating that, at least out in the real world, SUVs are not doing well in this area, the every increasing height of the front end meaning that smaller people and cyclists can get dragged under the front. Research is more in the US perhaps, I recall there has been some links shown between at least engine size and collision fatality risk in GB, vehicle make/model is unfortunately not recorded on stats19 form.

I'm not sure the ncap tests account for the size or weight of the vehicle particularly well. They hit an impactor into the car at a fixed velocity (40kph) rather than the other way around and it's not a full dummy simulation.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Oldjohnw »

Let me be clear: I wouldn't dream of owning an SUV. I think they are a menace and almost always pointless. I was just saying that a RAV was hardly a Chelsea Tractor.
John
atoz
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by atoz »

SUVs have their uses, or rather 4x4 vehicles do if you live in a rural area. Not London.

Although I live in a village that boasts 2 roads up with 1 in 6 gradients most people who live there don't have an SUV or 4x 4.

Corbyn never needed an SUV as leader. He was forced to be ferried around in am Mpv for security, and by all accounts would have preferred using his bike, but he was an obvious target for attack as leader. So for him there was no choice. For Starmer there is a choice as a motorist- he could have chosen something else or did what Corbyn did. Not a question of inverse snobbery, it's about setting an example, and he's set the wrong sort.
kwackers
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by kwackers »

atoz wrote:Corbyn never needed an SUV as leader. He was forced to be ferried around in am Mpv for security, and by all accounts would have preferred using his bike, but he was an obvious target for attack as leader. So for him there was no choice. For Starmer there is a choice as a motorist- he could have chosen something else or did what Corbyn did. Not a question of inverse snobbery, it's about setting an example, and he's set the wrong sort.

And where did that get Corbyn?

"Too left" (or according to some on here "a trot")

If you're not in the mainstream, if you're a "bit out there" and particularly if you're trying to be ethical then you can expect the wrath of the DM and it's followers.
Stevek76
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by Stevek76 »

Oldjohnw wrote:I was just saying that a RAV was hardly a Chelsea Tractor.


Have you seen the latest model? It's hardly a cutesy japanese small offroader anymore unfortunately.

Length: 4.6m
Width: 1.86m
Height 1.66m
~1.7t

Essentially the same size and weight as a first gen range rover (long wheelbase version) and now with one of those silly macho/aggressive (and tacky) looking front ends that seem to be so common now.

Personally I'm not going to read too much in starmer's position on transport from his car choice, ultimate transport policy will heavily depend on party as well, we can see this currently. Johnson is relatively keen on active travel but is in a party that mostly isn't and he has very little political capital left hence the noticeable backpedalling in the EAFT push in the autumn as he yielded to pressure from conservative councillors and MPs. RAV4 is rather more the choice of someone who isn't really interested than an avid petrol head.

The present shadow transport position occupants are relatively promising. Not that that matters, short of a revolution or full blown conservative implosion it's a good few years till the next GE.
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reohn2
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Re: Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:
atoz wrote:Corbyn never needed an SUV as leader. He was forced to be ferried around in am Mpv for security, and by all accounts would have preferred using his bike, but he was an obvious target for attack as leader. So for him there was no choice. For Starmer there is a choice as a motorist- he could have chosen something else or did what Corbyn did. Not a question of inverse snobbery, it's about setting an example, and he's set the wrong sort.

And where did that get Corbyn?

"Too left" (or according to some on here "a trot")

If you're not in the mainstream, if you're a "bit out there" and particularly if you're trying to be ethical then you can expect the wrath of the DM and it's followers.

Quite!
But when you're really out there as per being a complete clownatic,you get to be PM with a large majority and a completely underperforming idiotic cabinet in tow :?
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