Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

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Scotland - an independent nation within 10 years?

Yes
48
54%
No
41
46%
 
Total votes: 89

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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Paulatic »

toontra wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 6:07pm [

My considered opinion as an expat Scot who returns often is the SNP should concentrate on running the country using their devolved powers for a good few years so they can be judged on their competence to run things (you know, the little things like education) and focus a lot less on their swivel-eyed nationalist ideologies.
We’ve had a Scottish Parliament for 23 years tomorrow isn’t that enough years to satisfy your requirements? It doesn’t belong to the SNP and hasn’t always had an SNP majority. It’s for the people of Scotland and who they democratically choose. You chose to leave and have no part in that selection. That is your choice.
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toontra
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by toontra »

Paulatic wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 6:38pm
toontra wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 6:07pm [

My considered opinion as an expat Scot who returns often is the SNP should concentrate on running the country using their devolved powers for a good few years so they can be judged on their competence to run things (you know, the little things like education) and focus a lot less on their swivel-eyed nationalist ideologies.
We’ve had a Scottish Parliament for 23 years tomorrow isn’t that enough years to satisfy your requirements? It doesn’t belong to the SNP and hasn’t always had an SNP majority. It’s for the people of Scotland and who they democratically choose. You chose to leave and have no part in that selection. That is your choice.
According to friends who are either current or newly-retired teachers, the SNP's "Curriculum for Excellence" has been an unmitigated disaster and left children severely impoverished. This is a devolved power so no blaming the English for this one. Yes, they've had 15 years in power, which should have given them time to establish a track record - but I specifically said competently. The SNP should concentrate on doing the things they are empowered to do well and less on flag-waving nationalism and then perhaps people like me would take them more seriously.

BTW I didn't leave of my own choice. I was 8 and dragged by my parents :wink:
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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Paulatic »

toontra wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 7:22pm]

According to friends who are either current or newly-retired teachers, the SNP's "Curriculum for Excellence" has been an unmitigated disaster and left children severely impoverished. This is a devolved power so no blaming the English for this one. Yes, they've had 15 years in power, which should have given them time to establish a track record - but I specifically said competently. The SNP should concentrate on doing the things they are empowered to do well and less on flag-waving nationalism and then perhaps people like me would take them more seriously.

BTW I didn't leave of my own choice. I was 8 and dragged by my parents :wink:
Ah CfE a bold new idea completely different from the what most teachers were used to. I’ve no longer any connections to active people in education. At the time it was introduced I had. Early years embraced the concept quite readily but when that age group worked it’s way up through the years it met resistance from established teaching staff. Some I knew seemed to go out of their way not to follow it.
I recall reading a report years ago from a university that a lot of the opposition was from opinion rather than facts. I don’t know but I do know any new idea cannot be instantly perfect. If it’s critics put as much effort into improving it as they do dissing it then it then I believe we could all be proud of Scottish education.
A few years ago I watched a TV programme with some young children, from a Scottish school, spending a night in a museum. I thought at the time they were shining examples of what CfE was meant to produce.

When I was 8 my parents dragged me away from Stockton-on-Tees into the countryside for which I’ve been eternally grateful. I hope you have. :D
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

So it's the teachers fault if the SNP education policy doesn't work? You might be right but is there anything that people claim the SNP has done wrong that you agree with? Can you accept any criticism of SNP or do you defend them no matter what? IME no administration gets everything right so I wonder what you would say the SNP has done wrong or had been unsuccessful with our indeed had any incompetence?
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Paulatic »

Tangled Metal wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 11:37pm So it's the teachers fault if the SNP education policy doesn't work? You might be right but is there anything that people claim the SNP has done wrong that you agree with? Can you accept any criticism of SNP or do you defend them no matter what? IME no administration gets everything right so I wonder what you would say the SNP has done wrong or had been unsuccessful with our indeed had any incompetence?
Let’s get this clear TM it is the Scottish Parliament which make policies. I didn’t say it was the teachers fault I observed some didn’t appear willing to embrace it. The education committee is made up of all parties and convened by a SC&UP member. https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and ... -committee Who are currently considering a report concerning CfE. The foreword is worth a read if nothing else. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/b58 ... 58fdbce-en It reminds us it’s inception was during a Rainbow government when Labour had most seats.
I’ll accept valid criticism of any party and I’ll probably easily accept it if about a Tory :D Historically I’ve voted Liberal then Labour now SNP. If Scot Labour were to embrace Independence then I imagine they will then fare a lot better.
My criticism of SNP is they are very Central Belt focused and Southern Scotland often feels left out. Probably why we still have Tory MPs here.
I am happy with the Scottish Parliament it’s election process and the way it conducts itself. Can you say that about Westminster?
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Vorpal »

For those who are interested, Scotland's education committee invited the OECD to evaluate CfE. The OECD published a comprehensive report, available from https://www.oecd.org/education/scotland ... 417-en.htm

Overall, the auditors stated that CfE was working well for general education, including
New evidence from PISA 2018 showed Scottish students were among the top performers in central 21st century abilities, including their capacity to engage with people from different cultures, and to act for collective well-being and sustainable development. Students from disadvantaged backgrounds significantly improved their performance. Attainment and positive destinations of school leavers and other indicators linked to Curriculum for Excellence (CfE) also progressed in recent years.
They did note a number of areas for improvement, and make some recommendations.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

I'm never happy with parliaments as there's never been one that's not engaged as much with party politics as with representation of the electorate. I think SNP independence obsession is about catering more for their core audience than the whole electorate. There's similarities with all parties in that respect.

As to whether Scottish Parliament is better than Westminster, well I'm not that sure. Same old games, different players. I guess Scottish players suit you more than Westminster players.
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 1 Jul 2022, 10:14am For those who are interested, Scotland's education committee invited the OECD to evaluate CfE. The OECD published a comprehensive report, available from https://www.oecd.org/education/scotland ... 417-en.htm

Overall, the auditors stated that CfE was working well for general education, including
New evidence from PISA 2018 showed Scottish students were among the top performers in central 21st century abilities, including their capacity to engage with people from different cultures, and to act for collective well-being and sustainable development. Students from disadvantaged backgrounds significantly improved their performance. Attainment and positive destinations of school leavers and other indicators linked to Curriculum for Excellence (CfE) also progressed in recent years.
They did note a number of areas for improvement, and make some recommendations.
That's the only evaluation that i've been able to find.

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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Paulatic »

Tangled Metal wrote: 1 Jul 2022, 12:05pm
As to whether Scottish Parliament is better than Westminster, well I'm not that sure. Same old games, different players. I guess Scottish players suit you more than Westminster players.
Even though, as far as I know, you haven’t experienced living with a government selected with some form of proportional representation you think it’s no better than FPTP. That’s your opinion but I know which I prefer.
FPTP gives me a useless kid who spends his days saying SNP bad ( you might like him :D ) and has yet to come up with anything constructive but loves destructive. Thankfully I’ve also a 'list' MSP ,a former nurse, who quietly gets things done. Responsible for a very good overhaul of dogs in livestock legislation.
Hence I feel represented but with Westminster I’m saddled with a cake eating, ineffectual individual father of afore mentioned kid who has never worked. Sends me cut and paste replies if I’m lucky enough to get a reply to any question. I don’t feel represented.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

That comment had nothing to, so with electoral system, but I doubt any system will affect a parliament where adversarial politics based around parties with opposing ideologies enough. Coalitions may form but you still get opposing coalitions.

Take Belgium for example. I once had a very interesting discussion with a Belgian guy on a cycle tour in the country about their system. He'd spent some time in the UK so he was aware of both political systems. He said that their PR system meant that there had Thu be compromises and cooperation to get things done. However it also led to a long period of coalition forming after each election. Smaller parties out to get a much of their policies into the programme. Deal making behind the scenes that nobody really voted for. His view not mine. Makes me think it's still all part of the issues with party politics. Got to have a side!
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Paulatic »

With everything else that’s happening around him he still found time to make a decision on behalf of the people in Scotland. :(
Probably shows he’s not planning a snap election anytime soon.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Isn't that the whole legal issue that matters that affect the union are a withheld matter? Or to put it bluntly he's made a legal decision on the union of which Scotland is part of. If that interpretation is wrong I'm sure the biggest clue will be the winning of the SNP administration's case in the supreme Court. If that happens then it is clearly a Scottish decision, if it doesn't it's a union decision under the remit of the UK prime minister.

Of course if the SNP didn't bring indy ref up again then he wouldn't have had to spend time replying to Sturgeon, again! Can the SNP stop wasting his time? :wink:
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 8:45pm Isn't that the whole legal issue that matters that affect the union are a withheld matter? Or to put it bluntly he's made a legal decision on the union of which Scotland is part of. If that interpretation is wrong I'm sure the biggest clue will be the winning of the SNP administration's case in the supreme Court. If that happens then it is clearly a Scottish decision, if it doesn't it's a union decision under the remit of the UK prime minister.
But that's only the legal process as currently defined. And it's good that we'll get an authoritative ruling.

There might be other things that look like an advisory referendum that aren't covered by those laws and that ruling.

That might spin out into a challenge on whether the Scottish Government can spend money on those.

And that will all play into the political question of whether the Union is a voluntary agreement between countries or not.

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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by thirdcrank »

Paulatic wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 6:53pm With everything else that’s happening around him he still found time to make a decision on behalf of the people in Scotland. :(
Probably shows he’s not planning a snap election anytime soon.
Catch 22?

In the unlikely event that he had ignored this, I fancy it would have been "ignoring the aspirations of a nation" or something similar.
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