New Campag 13 speed

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andrewwillans49
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby andrewwillans49 » 5 Jan 2021, 6:41am

Designed primarily for gravel and as such is likely to be fit for purpose as the need for a front mech is gone.
Wear on a 9 tooth cog will be high and that's a trade off some will be willing to pay.
My aging campag set up runs 13 /26 ten speed cassette and 53/42/28 chainset. Benefits are small ratio jumps which is nice for cadence, downside is it requires more fettling and unships chain occasionally. If upper and lower set screws aer adjusted to prevent this, upshifts to the 53 ring is difficult. Its a trade off.

thirdcrank
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Jan 2021, 10:08am

I can't help reflecting that parts of the bike trade have learnt from the fate of once-mighty Raleigh: once everybody in the world has an all-steel bicycle, your market is limited.

reohn2
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 10:34am

thirdcrank wrote:I can't help reflecting that parts of the bike trade have learnt from the fate of once-mighty Raleigh: once everybody in the world has an all-steel bicycle, your market is limited.

That sad fact is what's led us to 1x13,what next 1x16sp? :roll:

I understand why some cycling disciplines have led to 1x systems MTB and Gravel riding in adverse conditions that might clog up a front mech with mud and muck etc.
As for most cycling 2x or 3x 8sp and 9sp systems beat 1x 11sp+ hands down for durability and range.
IMHO it all went daft after 10sp :?
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reohn2
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 10:40am

Mick F wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Am I alone in thinking a 9T sprocket (or even a 10) is insanity?
11t is insanity too.

I have 11t on my Moulton.
On the previous cassette, I changed it three times. Rest of the cassette was ok.
I bought four 11t cogs as soon as I realised that it was wearing terribly. Good job Shimano 11t are cheap and I still have a spare. When that one wears, I'll be buying another four.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... ang=en.....

Mick
I must have at least four possibly six 9sp Shimano 11t top sprockets.PM me if you want them and I'll post them to you.
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Trikesnbikes
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Trikesnbikes » 5 Jan 2021, 11:21am

I love my 1x 11-42 cassette set-up. That is as a leisure cyclist with no interest in competition.

I started my "proper" cycling 45 years ago with what I naively thought was a sporty bike which came with 5 speed derailleur gearing and a single chainring. I did my first 100 mile trip on that bike and because I didn't know any better I thought it was a great machine.

I eventually found the benefit of a wider gear range and for most of those years used triple chainrings with progressively wider freewheels then cassettes and I was grateful for the very wide gear range, especially on the steeper hills. I took pride in my ability to set up and operate the front triple changer, although to be honest in the latter years the big chainring didn't see much use.

I first tried going back to a single chainring when wider cassettes became available from MTB ranges and I found that as a non-racer I didn't miss having multiple rings or have any problem with wider gaps between gears. When proper 1x set-ups came on the market that completed the picture for me and all my bikes, trikes and recumbents now have Shimano or SRAM 1x systems.

With a suitable choice of chainring I find most of my cycling is in the middle ratios so I haven't suffered from premature wear on the smallest sprockets. I have also found the Shimano and SRAM derailleurs easy to fit and adjust, far easier than that old 5 speed friction derailleur on the first bike. Also I haven't noticed any tendency for the gears to go out of adjustment.

For my type of riding I can't see any need to progress to 12 or 13 speed systems so I will probably stick to the 11 speed I am very happy with.

Brucey
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2021, 11:57am

Trikesnbikes wrote:….With a suitable choice of chainring I find most of my cycling is in the middle ratios so I haven't suffered from premature wear on the smallest sprockets....


and that is why a 1x system is something you can get away with on a MTB, too. However if you are a bit of a masher and ride mostly on the road, typical 1x setups consign you to using small sprockets and bad chainlines most of the time.

Having a given range in a 1x setup looks great on paper but the extreme gears are not really well-suited to prolonged use.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bgnukem
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby bgnukem » 5 Jan 2021, 2:02pm

Yes, you can bet the chains will wear out faster with the inferior chain lines and then knock out the chainrings/sprockets, as most people won't be measuring their chains and replacing at 0.5% wear.

Also the 'rings will wear faster, with only one 'ring used all the time. And for what advantage, a tiny weight saving eliminating the front mech/shifter and one or two smallish chainrings, offset to a significant degree by a dinner-plate-sized cassette (a steel 42t sprocket being heavier than an aluminium alloy 42T chainring)?

If I was using a single ring set-up I'd go for 7 sprockets at the rear spaced narrowly (e.g. for 9-speed indexed shiftier, using the rear mech limit screws to avoid over-shifting) and a smallish chainring (maybe 44T) with a large cassette (maybe 13-34), and accept that walking up some hills will be required rather than grinding my knees (and transmission) to oblivion.....

fastpedaller
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby fastpedaller » 5 Jan 2021, 2:15pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Am I alone in thinking a 9T sprocket (or even a 10) is insanity?
11t is insanity too.

I have 11t on my Moulton.
On the previous cassette, I changed it three times. Rest of the cassette was ok.
I bought four 11t cogs as soon as I realised that it was wearing terribly. Good job Shimano 11t are cheap and I still have a spare. When that one wears, I'll be buying another four.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... ang=en.....

Mick
I must have at least four possibly six 9sp Shimano 11t top sprockets.PM me if you want them and I'll post them to you.

That's a generous offer - if this goes global, Mick F could end up with hundreds of the beasts :lol:

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Mick F
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Mick F » 5 Jan 2021, 4:39pm

fastpedaller wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:11t is insanity too.

I have 11t on my Moulton.
On the previous cassette, I changed it three times. Rest of the cassette was ok.
I bought four 11t cogs as soon as I realised that it was wearing terribly. Good job Shimano 11t are cheap and I still have a spare. When that one wears, I'll be buying another four.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... ang=en.....

Mick
I must have at least four possibly six 9sp Shimano 11t top sprockets.PM me if you want them and I'll post them to you.

That's a generous offer - if this goes global, Mick F could end up with hundreds of the beasts :lol:
I take it that people don't use their top gears?

What's the point in having a ratio you don't want or need?

Personally - and no doubt we all agree - 11t is stupid.
The Moulton TSR came with a 58/11 top gear = 97 gear inches.
I bought a 61t and sold the 58t which took me up to 102 gear inches. That was better, but TBH, I'd have bought a 65t but the cost was prohibitive, even though it would have given me a better top gear of 110 gear inches.

Better, though even more prohibitively expensive would be a 70/13 giving (only) 100 gear inches.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 6:57pm

Mick
I forgot to mention,those 11t sprockets are all new never fitted,all my cassettes are custom made starting a 14t so I have a collection of new 11t cogs
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Mick F
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Mick F » 5 Jan 2021, 7:20pm

R2.
Very generous. :D

Mine is 10sp, do the 9sp ones fit?
Mick F. Cornwall

Brucey
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2021, 7:22pm

Mick F wrote: ….What's the point in having a ratio you don't want or need?...


it looks good on the spec sheet...?

But seriously all derailleur gear systems would be pretty useless if all the gears were used equally much, or worse yet the use was primarily confined to the extreme ratios.

However for some riders, the latter is closer to the fact of the matter than others; folk who ride in very hilly terrain may well find themselves mainly either slogging away in a low gear climbing or using one of their highest gears going down the other side (Mick...?). Other folk who ride primarily on the flat might be climbing only 10% of the time or thereabouts. The required gear range might be the same in each case but the implications for wear and overall transmission efficiency are completely different. Needless to say there is no 'one size fits all' solution here; maybe a 9T sprocket is OK if you only intend to use it a tiny fraction of a % of the time...?

IIRC 9s 11T sprockets are slightly thicker (including the built in spacer) than 10s ones. I think a little grinding will convert a 9s one to fit a 10s cassette.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stevek76
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Stevek76 » 5 Jan 2021, 8:07pm

reohn2 wrote:I understand why some cycling disciplines have led to 1x systems MTB and Gravel riding in adverse conditions that might clog up a front mech with mud and muck etc.


For mtb the benefits are considerable. Removes issues with rear suspension; much better chain retention with long teeth on the chainring and more recently narrow-wides; better ground clearance & removes any fuss about front shifts which are rarely ideal under load. Some of those benefits carry to cross/gravel as well which is why 1x is cropping up there.

I guess wear depends on exactly what is ridden but for most riders I doubt the 10t has a huge amount of use or is the one that wears first.

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speedsixdave
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby speedsixdave » 5 Jan 2021, 9:27pm

thirdcrank wrote:Re the 9 tooth sprocket, IIRC that was available years ago on a Moulton


IIRC Alex Moulton's patent on the 9-tooth sprocket was some years before he actually started offering them on the AM7 (1982-3), so at least 40 years old now. Shimano engineers came to consult with him when designing the Capreo 9t cassettes but whether this was licensing, true engineering consultancy or just courtesy I do not know.

The chordal action issue is such that for some years new Moultons have been sold with 10t smallest sprockets rather than 9t. On a 369 wheel a 9t or 10t sprocket is a pragmatic decision where the numerous disadvantages of such may be overridden by the desire for high gears without resorting to the 74t chainrings of the 1960s. On a 622 wheel accepting these disadvantages seems insane, when the 'technology' required to achieve high gears without needing tiny sprockets or massive chainrings has been around for decades.

On the plus side the availability of 1x 9t gearing will be a boon to owners of Moulton AM7s, so on their behalf I thank Mr Campagnolo for providing for this important market so considerately.
Big wheels good, small wheels better.
Two saddles best!

reohn2
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 10:11pm

Mick F wrote:R2.
Very generous. :D

Mine is 10sp, do the 9sp ones fit?

I don't know is the short answer,perhaps someone on the forum might though.
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