Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

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Carlton green
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 14 Feb 2022, 7:58pm
Carlton green wrote: 14 Feb 2022, 7:44pm I honestly don’t see what value Mayors add with respect to Police Forces and believe that they should all be accountable to the Home Office (or similar if the power is devolved at home nation level) .
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk ... do/powers/
Power in the UK is generally far too centralised. And the Home Secretary in particular has far too many powers with far too little accountability.

We'll eventually get some information on sizes from the changes in policing in Scotland.

Jonathan
I said Home Office, a large organisation run by Civil Servants if headed by a Politician - the Politicians come and go. What this country needs is better governance and less politics, well that’s my belief. Centralised Government isn’t necessarily bad, it just needs support and influence at smaller geographical areas to be fed into it. As for accountability, the Police are accountable at various levels in their structure. It might not be perfect but it could be far worse.

Scotland has a relatively small population, which is centred on one major city, and a large land mass. I’m not sure that results there will be particularly applicable to the rest of the U.K.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by thirdcrank »

Re accountability, it's hard to see how the current blurred lines of political accountability in London could be worse.

Re police organisation, there's always been a debate over the size of forces, or at least there has since the programme of amalgamations in the 1960s.

I'm not convinced that Scotland is directly relevant here, except perhaps to note there has always been opposition to a national police force for England.
Police Scotland was established on 1 April 2013 and is responsible for policing across the whole of Scotland. This is some 28,168 square miles, covering a third of the United Kingdom’s landmass with a unique range of urban, rural, island and remote communities.

It is the second largest force in the UK after the Metropolitan Police. There's a workforce of 23,000 officers and staff working together for the people of Scotland.
https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/
The big difference with the Met is the land area covered.

Another point is that this isn't some sort of leisurely experiment: it needs a plan now. And changing the commissioner seems ulikely to produce that on its own.

So, what's the plan?
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60375845
"The Met Police Federation has declared it has "no faith" in Sadiq Khan after the "very public ousting" of Dame Cressida Dick as commissioner.
She resigned from the role on Thursday over the mayor of London's lack of confidence in her plans for reform.
More than 31,000 rank-and-file officers are represented by the Met Police Federation."


We've seen before that police forces (Police Federation normally quoted) have turned their back on their leaders/bosses, mostly Political, albeit.

What is "rank and file"?

Interesting to see that when you join the police, in just seven years you can double your money, that's not bad is it.
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Jdsk
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by Jdsk »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 15 Feb 2022, 11:33amWhat is "rank and file"?
Staff associations in the police are sliced by rank.

The MPF covers up to chief inspector, so TTBOMK that's constable, sergeant, inspector and chief inspector.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by thirdcrank »

I wanted to wind back to this but I've edited to concentrate on the issue of the Met Commissioner's responsibilities and accountability
Jdsk wrote: 14 Feb 2022, 7:31pm (.....)
The accountability of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police is different from that anywhere else in England.
]If the national and local responsibilities of the MPS were separated this would be much easier.[/b]
thirdcrank wrote: 14 Feb 2022, 7:44pm
This is one of the first, if not the first signs I've seen across the several Cressida threads that anybody sees that change is going to be needed, but I think it will need to go a lot further than eg hiving off things like royal and diplomatic protection to the National Crime Agency.
As with so much else in our society, changes occur through drift, rather than a clear decision and the current control of the Metropolitan Police is an example of that. The background is that London had the first police force and London is the largest conurbation in the UK so it has always had the biggest police force. Simples. London is the political centre of the country (not the universe as some seem to believe) so the Metropolitan Police under its Commissioner has naturally had responsibility for protecting all the people like royalty, diplomats, and ministers, and places like the London palaces, high commissions and embassies, and Downing Street. Again simples. And the secret squirrel squads - not simple at all.

The benefits of having it all under one roof, have to be weighed against the sometimes conflicting demands of general policing - protecting the general public - as against the protection of VIPs.

Among what I see as the problems are giving the impression that those doing this work are "ordinary bobbies." Another is that the costs of security are partly buried in policing budgets. What seems to have happened recently is that the more the specialist protection people have specialised eg permanent, prominent arming with firearms, the more that has detracted from the perception of normal policing.

These drifts are long-term - occurring gradually over almost two centuries, but they have come to a head over Partygate: those performing protection duties in Downing Street have apparently not been carrying out the admittedly abnormal enforcement of lockdown rules expected of the normal police. This has highlighted the imo untenable situation in which the Met Commissioner is accountable to both the Home Secretary and the Mayor. This shouldn't really come as a surprise: when he was Mayor, Boris Johnson got rid of an openly defiant Ian Blair, apparently because of his being too close to the other Blair, or at least New Labour.

Whatever the problems of implementation, it seems the change is overdue. As I said above, I think it will need to go a lot further than just this. The initial aim should be to create clear lines of political accountability not least to give the Mayor more clear responsibility for policing in the capital. IMO, Most of the other changes - to reverse the drift in policing methods - affect E&W as a whole

(This may seem incredible but I've tried to keep that concise.)
thirdcrank
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by thirdcrank »

Cressida Dick: Mayor accused over handling of Met chief's exit
(...)Giving evidence to the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee, Sir Stephen (House, Deputy Commissioner) said: "There's a clear procedure in statute laid down to allow the removal of a police chief officer - it's not been followed in this instance.

"It's not even been initiated in this instance, due process has not been followed, and instead we've seen matters played out in the media." (...)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60490160

I see that Stephen House joined the police a year before Cressida Dick and in a career including service in several forces (we were colleagues in West Yorkshire a couple years before I retired but I remember as little about him as he will of me) he was eventually appointed as the first chief constable of Police Scotland. He "stood down in 2015 following a series of controversies" and some three years later he was appointed assistant commissioner of the Met.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_House
Psamathe
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 23 Feb 2022, 4:06pm Cressida Dick: Mayor accused over handling of Met chief's exit
(...)Giving evidence to the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee, Sir Stephen (House, Deputy Commissioner) said: "There's a clear procedure in statute laid down to allow the removal of a police chief officer - it's not been followed in this instance.

"It's not even been initiated in this instance, due process has not been followed, and instead we've seen matters played out in the media." (...)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60490160

I see that Stephen House joined the police a year before Cressida Dick and in a career including service in several forces (we were colleagues in West Yorkshire a couple years before I retired but I remember as little about him as he will of me) he was eventually appointed as the first chief constable of Police Scotland. He "stood down in 2015 following a series of controversies" and some three years later he was appointed assistant commissioner of the Met.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_House
Everything I've seen is Ms Dick resigned. If she (or others) are maintaining she was "forced out" then I'd have thought Ms Dick needs to go to an employment tribunal(?) and have such a finding against whoever she alleges forced her out.

Resigning is the choice of the employee. When I've have "difficult" employers and the official advice is "don't resign" as proving things later gets very difficult (unless you have loads of documentary evidence).

My understanding is that if Ms Dick's employer wanted to sack her there undoubtedly is a procedure to follow. But is the Mayor to retain confidence in somebody he has lost confidence in because he hasn't followed the procedure for "loss of confidence"? And Khan had invited Ms dick to a meeting to discuss her plan (the issue that caused the problem) so Khan was giving her a chance to prove she could sort things out - but instead of attending she sent in her resignation.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by thirdcrank »

In other news, it's reported that Cressida Dick will be leaving on 10 April, in which case, with leave owing etc., she's probably all but gone.

Cressida Dick to leave post next week amid search for new chief to reform Met

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/cr ... uxbndlbing
Psamathe
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 2 Apr 2022, 12:20pm In other news, it's reported that Cressida Dick will be leaving on 10 April, in which case, with leave owing etc., she's probably all but gone.

Cressida Dick to leave post next week amid search for new chief to reform Met

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/cr ... uxbndlbing
Most jobs I've left, working the notice period has been pretty dire in that you can't think about achieving anything, more just handing over things to others, explaining backgrounds to them and you can't decide much at least not without checking with or discussing with whoever it taking over. I've quickly ended-up with not much to do.

I suspect she must be in a similar position. Nobody appointed to replace her (I've not seen any announcements) so she's just handing over to her "stand-ins" pending an appointment so I can understand if it's her choice to leave now.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by thirdcrank »

AIUI, the Met will be under the leadership of the Deputy Commissioner, Sir Stephen House ie the normal procedure when a chief officer goes before their successor has been appointed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_House
Jdsk
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by Jdsk »

"Dick will receive a severance payment of £165,727.36. A source said the majority of that sum related to six months’ notice plus an additional payment of two months’ salary."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... sadiq-khan

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by Jdsk »

"My letter to London - Commissioner Cressida Dick":
https://news.met.police.uk/news/my-lett ... ick-445830

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by thirdcrank »

London mayor thanks departing Met commissioner on final day

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61053431
The Labour mayor added that he would not support the appointment of a new commissioner who "doesn't understand or acknowledge the scale of the challenge facing policing".
Put another way, he's not prepared to acknowledge that the present set-up cannot be expected to resolve that challenge.
Psamathe
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Re: Dame Cressida Rose Dick (What do we know)

Post by Psamathe »

Despite Ms Dick's denials about institutional issues, her temproary "stand-in" seems to think differently
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/20/met-police-culture-problems-not-just-a-few-bad-apples-says-acting-head wrote:Met police culture problems ‘not just a few bad apples’, says acting head
...
The acting head of the UK’s biggest police force has admitted that cultural problems in the force are “not a few bad apples” and called for a change in procedures to allow managers to speedily sack errant officers.
...
Ian
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