How oh how do you get a lockring off?

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Jdsk
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by Jdsk »

Paulatic wrote:Am I correct then that 430N is approx 43Kg so does that also equate to approx a 100lb of torque or am I barking up the wrong tree.

Also no.

An object with a mass of 43 kg has a weight (on the surface of the Earth) of about 430 newtons.

But torque is a different property from either mass or weight. Weight is a type of force, so with some assumptions about the relevant machine you can calculate torque from weight and lever distance.

Jonathan
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Paulatic
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by Paulatic »

Jdsk wrote:
Paulatic wrote:Am I correct then that 430N is approx 43Kg so does that also equate to approx a 100lb of torque or am I barking up the wrong tree.

Also no.

An object with a mass of 43 kg has a weight (on the surface of the Earth) of about 430 newtons.

But torque is a different property from either mass or weight. Weight is a type of force, so with some assumptions about the relevant machine you can calculate torque from weight and lever distance.

Jonathan

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slowster
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by slowster »

Paulatic wrote:This study suggests
55- and 50-mm grip spans were rated as the most comfortable sizes and showed the largest grip strength (433.6 N and 430.8 N

I've only skimmed the article quickly, but my reading of it is that those results were presumably for the strongest person out of all the study subjects, e.g. as opposed to an average person. Moreover, it was based on using a 'dynamometer' which enabled optimum grip and allowed each finger to apply force independently of the others, presumably similar to the photograph of the exercise device below. Squeezing together a chain whip and adjustable spanner handle will not be like that, since the span will vary across the grip, i.e. the two handles are not parallel. Therefore if the span happens to be optimum for, say, the index finger, it is likely to be less than optimum for the other fingers.

Image

As a thought experiment, consider the size and power of muscles used in a dumb bell pull up, and then imagine trying to lift the same dumb bell from the same starting position but with the dumb bell just resting in your fingers which you then try to squeeze into a fist in order to raise the dumb bell an inch or so. I struggle to imagine that a hand grip could lift anywhere near the same weight that can be lifted in a normal dumb bell pull up.

Image

I guess if you wanted to find out how much force you can apply with your hand grip, you could suspend various suitable weights*, e.g. 20kg and upwards from the end of your adjustable spanner with the spanner horizontal to the ground, the chain whip slightly above, and with the lock ring already loosened.

*Alternatively use a hanging scale suspended from the spanner and fastened to a very heavy or fixed object on the ground.
Jdsk
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by Jdsk »

I thought that the idea behind the tool alignment wasn't to use finger force but rather what you can compress between both palms with your hands close together.

Jonathan
slowster
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by slowster »

Jdsk wrote:I thought that the idea behind the tool alignment wasn't to use finger force but rather what you can compress between both palms with your hands close together.

:oops: Er, yeah. I've never had any difficulty removing a lock ring, and so I've never had to try to figure out what position was most effective, but the position you describe makes sense.

That said, I'd still like one of those 18" Bahco adjustable spanners and a longer chain whip.
colin54
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by colin54 »

[quote="slowster"]

That said, I'd still like one of those 18" Bahco adjustable spanners and a longer chain whip.[/quote

I've still got an 18'' Bahco from my fitting days, I find it's too big to handle comfortably (weigh 1.5Kg), a 15'' like in 531 colin's picture is a better bet, though a 12" is all you need really, mine's a Fuller which I've had for years, good enough. The thing about Bahco adjustable that makes them great is their comparatively light weight in the large sizes and excellent quality compared to other makes large adjustables (better steel), there were some horribly heavy ones around in similar sizes way back when. Like cheap ordinary spanners, they made them thick to offset poorer materials.
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by thirdcrank »

If we keep this in the context of unscrewing over-tightened or seized components then IMO decent tools with plenty of leverage and comfy grip are invaluable. The amateur bike mechanic cannot put a value on their time and all the rest of it, but that's no reason to struggle.

Fifty-odd years ago, I was up against the lockring on a motorbike exhaust. The C spanner included in the tool kit was designed for a smaller diameter and poorer quality than a typical cycle spanner. Penniless though I was, I shelled out for a Record pair of stilsons. Bingo! Inherited by my younger son when he became a mechanical fitter.
Biospace
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by Biospace »

A friend was struggling with an adjustable in just such a case, rooting through his tools we found a cheap socket set which despite the lack of quality, cracked off the seized ring without fuss.

A middling-quality half inch socket set and breaker bar is a much better solution than using any adjustable, imo. Also considerably less expensive than a good quality one. :idea:
thirdcrank
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by thirdcrank »

Biospace wrote:A friend was struggling with an adjustable in just such a case, rooting through his tools we found a cheap socket set which despite the lack of quality, cracked off the seized ring without fuss.

A middling-quality half inch socket set and breaker bar is a much better solution than using any adjustable, imo. Also considerably less expensive than a good quality one. :idea: (My emphasis.)


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Hi all you good people. I have a question about removing freewheels. ...


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531colin
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by 531colin »

slowster wrote:..........The muscles in the hands are so much smaller than those in the shoulder and upper arms, that it seems to me that they must exert significantly less force.........


We are a long way from "how to get your lockring undone", but this is wide of the mark.
The main muscles which flex the fingers (eg to form a fist) are located in the forearm, not in the hand itself.
Everything else being equal, a big muscle will provide more force than a small muscle at the ends of the muscles.
However, what is important is the magnitude of the force by the time it gets to the hand, and for this you must consider also what levers are involved.
Take as an example the only muscle which "every schoolboy" knows the name of, the bicep. We are going back about as far as Archimedes again; the bicep moves the hand as a class 3 lever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever.
The fulcrum is the elbow joint, the bicep tendon attaches the bone (radius) quite close to the fulcrum; the hand is much further from the fulcrum (probably less then 10 times) so the force is (less than 10 times) less at the hand than at the bicep tendon.
Biospace
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by Biospace »

531colin wrote:The main muscles which flex...


Not sure where you were leading us there wrt to the problem in hand, but one observation I've made many a time is that if you exert a force on both nuts which need separating on a thread it does often appear that they release more easily than if one nut is held stationary by a 'third hand' and you bulge your eyes exerting effort on just one.

It's purely anecdotal, I've never gone further to see if there is anything in it. But it often surprises me how much force can be applied by two hands trying to move two spanners at a small angle apart, together. Typically when wanting to tweak steering alignment on something with three or more wheels.

As usual, a few shocks to a lever which is already leaning on something stubborn can work wonders. Choice of hammer weight is critical, and best applied to a non-adjustable socket/spanner.
Jdsk
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote:But it often surprises me how much force can be applied by two hands trying to move two spanners at a small angle apart, together.

I think that position works well for skeletal bracing and decreases lever effects on extended arms.

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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

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Mick F
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by Mick F »

As I said up thread, I made a pair of chainwhips in the early 1980's and they're still going strong. Made tough out of steel and especially designed to fit in a bench vice and to be hit with a hammer and specifically for freewheel disassembly.
Chainwhips.jpg


Trouble with them, is that they're heavy and bulky and nowadays with cassette lockrings not being as tight as freewheel clusters, they are over-built for my modern usage.

Thought about making a lightweight one, and considered buying a spoon and cutting the bowl off to make a new chainwhip with the handle. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32CM-LARGE-S ... Swp0ZeX8Df
I may yet buy it.

Meanwhile, I set about making one from alu strip. First attempt was the only bit of flat alu I had lying about. It was only just long enough, but flexed and bent under load, so I made another out of a longer piece of angle alu. This worked a treat and I've made a rudimentary handgrip from pipe insulation and PVC tape.

Strong, light, simple, effective ................ but only for normally tightened lockrings! :D
IMG_0313.jpg
IMG_0314.jpg
Cost me nothing other than time and scrap stuff, as well as some worn Campag 10sp chain.
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tatanab
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Post by tatanab »

Late 60s/early 70s my local shop sold the lever and you added your own chain. Here it is with a piece of 1/8 chain that has been on there about 50 years. 1/8 is handy, even now,
100_1382.JPG
because it can be used with any width of sprocket.
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