Cycling UK Forum

andrew_s wrote:Advantages of washing line shifters:

The cable run is a single large radius curve, rather than several tighter bends, so, all other things being equal, shifting will be better.
The shifting mechanism is of easier access, so maintenance, such as replacing a fraying inner cable, is much easier, and less likely to involve further work, such as replacing the bar tape..
The stem clamp area is less cluttered, making the fitment of accessories easier.
The washing lines can be useful for hanging things on, such as washing, or route sheets/maps.

Disadvantages of washing line shifters:

They look less tidy.
There's a little more wind resistance.
They get in the way of handlebar bags.

I like many have used all the iterations of Shimano integrated brake shifters (and Campagnolo), the shifting on the older Shimano 10 speed 'clothes line' types was very nice, the 6600/7800 very nice indeed, however I've had 5800 STIs for what, 7 years and they are superior IMO in terms of shifting. The Dura Ace first hidden cable shifters are good but not quite up to the previous iteration but are still a world away from the 8 and 9 speed STI units. By time you get to 11 speed it's a different ball game. As for easier access to replace fraying inner cables, how hard is it to check your cables once in a while before they get too cream crackered to be easily removed no matter which system you use? I've never had to replace the bar tape on the later units because of cable issues.

Stem/clamp area isn't cluttered, quite the opposite in fact as you've just mentioned regards fitting a bar bag, I can fit two clamp on lights plus a GPS on my carbon bars of my racing machine, how many more 'accessories' does one need?

Would I go back, if that was the only option financially/availability wise yes, but only to the 5600/6600/7800, everything before that is incomparable and sub par to the hidden cable stuff by a distance IME.

9000, 6800, 5800 (11s) all use a different shift ratio -in both FD and RD- vs older groupsets and (with the right cables) shift OK. They use about 2.7mm cable pull per rear shift.

DA, Ultegra, 105 10s groupsets in hidden cable form (7900, 6700, 5700) use the 'old' shift ratios (~2.3mm cable pull per rear shift) and this combined with underbartape routing means that these groupsets tend to be very sensitive to cable condition.

Shimano had at least three goes at cable sets for these groupsets which used various forms of coated inner cable. These 'worked' in that they initially offered lower friction, but all too often the coating came off the inner cable and managed to clog the outer cable.

When Tiagra went 10s with 4700 (and GRX 10s arrived later on) they both used the 'new' shift ratios as per the 11s groupsets (about 2.8mm cable pull per rear shift, in 10s form, which happens to be near-identical to 8s cable pull per rear shift too).
When Sora went 9s, they stuck with the 'old' RD shift ratio (so about 2.5mm cable pull per rear shift) but used the new shift ratio for the FD. {edit; in doubles but not triples]

So all current shimano groupsets with hidden cables use at least 2.5mm cable pull per rear shift, and seem to work OK. But uniquely in the case of 9s, the same cable pull per shift is used in older washing line shifters too, which makes them more tolerant of cable condition.

There is one extra bend in hidden cable routes, but the extra bend is a fairly generous radius (so doesn't strain the cable in the same way) and the transition from the lever to the handlebar is often a bit smoother too, so the effect of the extra bend isn't as bad as it might be. In any event the cables in such shifters usually break where they wrap around the spool, just as they do in older washing line shifters, rather than at the 'extra bend' per se. [ However I have seen one cable which failed in the part of the inner cable that sees both the spool and the extra bend; I suspect that on the bike in question the rider favoured the big-big gear combinations, so that part of the cable saw the most fatigue cycles around the spool anyway.]

All these index systems 'work' when initially set up, but wear/misalignment in the RD, chain, sprockets, and deteriorating cables all eventually conspire to stop the indexing from working properly. So depending on the state of the rest of the system, you might find that the condition of the cables limits the service interval of the system as a whole. This is arguably not an altogether bad thing in that if the cables work OK until they break inside the shifter, this can lead to massive problems.

FWIW it isn't a bad idea to keep track of roughly how many shifts you make; if you routinely ride the same kinds of roads, you can count shifts on an 'average ride' and use this to calculate how many shifts per mile you might normally do. If you know your mileage, you can work out how many shifts you make, total. One of my chums went through a phase of RD cable breakage and it turned out he shifted far more often than most other riders. He estimated that his cables all failed at about 150000 shifts, which was (for him) less than nine months riding. He now changes them at an estimated 130000 shifts and this seems to keep the spectre of cable breakage (via fatigue) inside the shifter at bay.

In truth there may be a difference in the way cable behave in different shifters but this is only one possible failure mode (from many) so it may or may not be significant, in fact. If these differences worry you, using something other than STIs is probably a good idea.

cheers

if you are sceptical, this may be because you have never had to remove a broken cable end from deep within a shifter, or seen a shifter break because of such a broken cable. To those who have seen either or both, 'lifeing' a cheap consumable like a cable inner makes perfect sense.

Remember that cables in shifters always violate design rules for near-infinite fatigue life, so it isn't a question of 'if' the inner cable will fail, merely a question of when.

FWIW cable inners break in DT and bar end shifters too; this happens less often, because few riders so equipped shift as frequently as with STIs. When the inner cable starts to fail in a DT lever or BE shifter, this commonly announces itself by the broken cable strands repeatedly stabbing you in the fingers.... nice....

cheers

Brucey wrote:When Sora went 9s, they stuck with the 'old' RD shift ratio (so about 2.5mm cable pull per rear shift) but used the new shift ratio for the FD.

I don't understand. Does that mean that different generations of front shifters move the front derailleur by different amounts?

I use a Sora R3030 (triple 9 speed left shifter) with a FD-5503 (105 9 speed triple FD). It works very well. Should it not?

Brucey wrote:if you are sceptical, this may be because you have never had to remove a broken cable end from deep within a shifter, or seen a shifter break because of such a broken cable. To those who have seen either or both, 'lifeing' a cheap consumable like a cable inner makes perfect sense.

Remember that cables in shifters always violate design rules for near-infinite fatigue life, so it isn't a question of 'if' the inner cable will fail, merely a question of when.

FWIW cable inners break in DT and bar end shifters too; this happens less often, because few riders so equipped shift as frequently as with STIs. When the inner cable starts to fail in a DT lever or BE shifter, this commonly announces itself by the broken cable strands repeatedly stabbing you in the fingers.... nice....

Same for circa 2000-2006 Campag Ergos. As the cable frays, strands stick out below the shifter, catching any thumb or finger holding the hood from above. Clear indication its time to replace the cable, so reduce shifting to minimum, finish ride, and change the cable !


- Nigel

Brucey wrote:9000, 6800, 5800 (11s) all use a different shift ratio -in both FD and RD- vs older groupsets and (with the right cables) shift OK. They use about 2.7mm cable pull per rear shift.

DA, Ultegra, 105 10s groupsets in hidden cable form (7900, 6700, 5700) use the 'old' shift ratios (~2.3mm cable pull per rear shift) and this combined with underbartape routing means that these groupsets tend to be very sensitive to cable condition.

Shimano had at least three goes at cable sets for these groupsets which used various forms of coated inner cable. These 'worked' in that they initially offered lower friction, but all too often the coating came off the inner cable and managed to clog the outer cable.

When Tiagra went 10s with 4700 (and GRX 10s arrived later on) they both used the 'new' shift ratios as per the 11s groupsets (about 2.8mm cable pull per rear shift, in 10s form, which happens to be near-identical to 8s cable pull per rear shift too).
When Sora went 9s, they stuck with the 'old' RD shift ratio (so about 2.5mm cable pull per rear shift) but used the new shift ratio for the FD.

So all current shimano groupsets with hidden cables use at least 2.5mm cable pull per rear shift, and seem to work OK. But uniquely in the case of 9s, the same cable pull per shift is used in older washing line shifters too, which makes them more tolerant of cable condition.

There is one extra bend in hidden cable routes, but the extra bend is a fairly generous radius (so doesn't strain the cable in the same way) and the transition from the lever to the handlebar is often a bit smoother too, so the effect of the extra bend isn't as bad as it might be. In any event the cables in such shifters usually break where they wrap around the spool, just as they do in older washing line shifters, rather than at the 'extra bend' per se. [ However I have seen one cable which failed in the part of the inner cable that sees both the spool and the extra bend; I suspect that on the bike in question the rider favoured the big-big gear combinations, so that part of the cable saw the most fatigue cycles around the spool anyway.]

All these index systems 'work' when initially set up, but wear/misalignment in the RD, chain, sprockets, and deteriorating cables all eventually conspire to stop the indexing from working properly. So depending on the state of the rest of the system, you might find that the condition of the cables limits the service interval of the system as a whole. This is arguably not an altogether bad thing in that if the cables work OK until they break inside the shifter, this can lead to massive problems.

FWIW it isn't a bad idea to keep track of roughly how many shifts you make; if you routinely ride the same kinds of roads, you can count shifts on an 'average ride' and use this to calculate how many shifts per mile you might normally do. If you know your mileage, you can work out how many shifts you make, total. One of my chums went through a phase of RD cable breakage and it turned out he shifted far more often than most other riders. He estimated that his cables all failed at about 150000 shifts, which was (for him) less than nine months riding. He now changes them at an estimated 130000 shifts and this seems to keep the spectre of cable breakage (via fatigue) inside the shifter at bay.

In truth there may be a difference in the way cable behave in different shifters but this is only one possible failure mode (from many) so it may or may not be significant, in fact. If these differences worry you, using something other than STIs is probably a good idea.

cheers

I predict a run on 9 speed Sti shifters.
Let's call it the Brucey effect!!!

Cheers James

Brucey wrote:When Tiagra went 10s with 4700 (and GRX 10s arrived later on) they both used the 'new' shift ratios as per the 11s groupsets (about 2.8mm cable pull per rear shift, in 10s form, which happens to be near-identical to 8s cable pull per rear shift too).

Presumably that means that 4700 and GRX-400 STIs will work with 7/8/9/10* speed rear mechs and and an eight speed cassette?

*old road 10 speed

Jamesh wrote:I predict a run on 9 speed Sti shifters.

I'm busy cornering the market. And XT RD-772s.

ElCani wrote:

Brucey wrote:When Tiagra went 10s with 4700 (and GRX 10s arrived later on) they both used the 'new' shift ratios as per the 11s groupsets (about 2.8mm cable pull per rear shift, in 10s form, which happens to be near-identical to 8s cable pull per rear shift too).

Presumably that means that 4700 and GRX-400 STIs will work with 7/8/9/10* speed rear mechs and and an eight speed cassette?

*old road 10 speed

yes, it should, but I have yet to actually try this. There may be a small difference and there is also a subtle difference in the linearity of the older and newer RDs, which may necessitate some special spacers in the cassette to make things 'perfect'. It may work well enough without, though, so it is certainly worth trying.

The converse is also interesting to me; an 8-from-10 system should work using a shortened 10s cassette, 'new' shift ratio RD and 8s shifters. The benefit would be a much reduced freehub body length (shorter than 7s, it would probably have to be made/adapted specially) and a much stronger rear wheel at any given OLN. This would (for example) allow 8s gearing to be used in a narrow vintage frame without spreading the back end.

IIRC some 10s cassettes start 11,12,14, so losing the two smallest sprockets would leave you with 'vintage' gearing, starting with a 14T sprocket, just the job in some cases.

cheers

mikeymo wrote:

Brucey wrote:When Sora went 9s, they stuck with the 'old' RD shift ratio (so about 2.5mm cable pull per rear shift) but used the new shift ratio for the FD.

I don't understand. Does that mean that different generations of front shifters move the front derailleur by different amounts?

I use a Sora R3030 (triple 9 speed left shifter) with a FD-5503 (105 9 speed triple FD). It works very well. Should it not?

In road triples, they kept the 'old' shift ratio even in the current generation of triple FDs, but not in doubles. This means that current Sora 9s doubles need a 'new style' FD, but triples can use an older FD without problems.

cheers

re cable lifeing; most riders will be OK if they swap out the inner cable for the RD every time the bike needs a new chain, and to the FD maybe every other time. My chum's riding was anomalous, in that he made his chains last well and made many more gear shifts than you might expect, per mile. He managed to demonstrate that the rear gear cable always failed before the chain wore out, so became the most frequently replaced consumable.

cheers

Brucey wrote:

mikeymo wrote:

Brucey wrote:When Sora went 9s, they stuck with the 'old' RD shift ratio (so about 2.5mm cable pull per rear shift) but used the new shift ratio for the FD.

I don't understand. Does that mean that different generations of front shifters move the front derailleur by different amounts?

I use a Sora R3030 (triple 9 speed left shifter) with a FD-5503 (105 9 speed triple FD). It works very well. Should it not?

In road triples, they kept the 'old' shift ratio even in the current generation of triple FDs, but not in doubles. This means that current Sora 9s doubles need a 'new style' FD, but triples can use an older FD without problems.

cheers

Ah, I see. Thanks very much for that info. As my bike tinkering is predicated on 9 speed triple this should all be fine. Well, apart from the different brake cable pulls.

if you are sceptical, this may be because you have never had to remove a broken cable end from deep within a shifter, or seen a shifter break because of such a broken cable. To those who have seen either or both, 'lifeing' a cheap consumable like a cable inner makes perfect sense.

This happened to me 100km into a hilly 400km audax ride. I was carrying a spare cable but extracting the broken cable proved impossible at the roadside. Fortunately the bike had a triple chainset so I completed the event (just) in 3 speed mode. As a consequence my audax bike is now equiped with down-tube levers mounted on kelly take offs. Possibly an over-reation but cable replacement is a breeze. The broken cable was about 2 years old but had covered a few miles.

Regards

Glen wrote:

if you are sceptical, this may be because you have never had to remove a broken cable end from deep within a shifter, or seen a shifter break because of such a broken cable. To those who have seen either or both, 'lifeing' a cheap consumable like a cable inner makes perfect sense.

This happened to me 100km into a hilly 400km audax ride. I was carrying a spare cable but extracting the broken cable proved impossible at the roadside. Fortunately the bike had a triple chainset so I completed the event (just) in 3 speed mode. As a consequence my audax bike is now equiped with down-tube levers mounted on kelly take offs. Possibly an over-reation but cable replacement is a breeze. The broken cable was about 2 years old but had covered a few miles.

Regards

Thinking aloud you could clamp the cable under your bottle cage in an appropriate gear? !!!

Cheers James

Brucey wrote:In road triples, they kept the 'old' shift ratio even in the current generation of triple FDs, but not in doubles. This means that current Sora 9s doubles need a 'new style' FD, but triples can use an older FD without problems.

cheers

I think in the case of the OP, if he were to fit R3000 9 Speed Sora levers they would work with both the FD and the RD that he has previously been using with washing line (ST-R3500?) levers.

Can anyone please confirm?