Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Tangled Metal wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:01pm
NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 10:52am Hi,
"Tangled Metal" wrote –

"wonder what is acceptable now that might be deemed totally unacceptable a few hundred years down the line,"

That's a good question.
I am three pages behind at the moment and catching up :(
I do that too. People who are up to date might forget what they said 3 or more pages back. I'd be interested to find out what you think we're doing now that's likely to be thought of as beyond acceptable in the future. I think one might be motor racing with ICE.
We havent got a crystal ball.
Its possible that history will repeat its self?
If you asked the Victorians would any of predicted how quick things would change.
Look at the Instagramers today!
Who would of thought you could earn a fortune by never leaving home and not having anything useful to do or say.

It might not be all good...........the future...
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Ben@Forest »

Tangled Metal wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:01pm I do that too. People who are up to date might forget what they said 3 or more pages back. I'd be interested to find out what you think we're doing now that's likely to be thought of as beyond acceptable in the future. I think one might be motor racing with ICE.
But what might we want to continue to see that's always going to be powered by fossil fuels? I read sometime ago that heritage attractions such as railways, beam engines, traction engines etc use 26,000 tonnes of coal a year (l think that was just England).

And of course there are heritage diesel locos, planes like the Battle of Britain flight and even vintage or classic car racing. A lot of the above can be a much more interesting history lesson to a child or adult who doesn't particularly enjoy reading or academic pursuits.

Plus of course whose going to ban the above whilst we (the UK) has, in normal times, around 1,300 flights a day?
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by reohn2 »

Ben@Forest wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 6:51am
Tangled Metal wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:01pm I do that too. People who are up to date might forget what they said 3 or more pages back. I'd be interested to find out what you think we're doing now that's likely to be thought of as beyond acceptable in the future. I think one might be motor racing with ICE.
But what might we want to continue to see that's always going to be powered by fossil fuels? I read sometime ago that heritage attractions such as railways, beam engines, traction engines etc use 26,000 tonnes of coal a year (l think that was just England).

And of course there are heritage diesel locos, planes like the Battle of Britain flight and even vintage or classic car racing. A lot of the above can be a much more interesting history lesson to a child or adult who doesn't particularly enjoy reading or academic pursuits.

Plus of course whose going to ban the above whilst we (the UK) has, in normal times, around 1,300 flights a day?
Thinks.......
We're a strange species,don't you think?
We cling to the past to make ourselves feel better as we trash the world(i don't exclude myself from this illness),as a species we're technically brilliant yet hopelessly stupid by the same measure,we have enough yet want ever more,enough is never enough and too much is never recognised as such.
I find it a bit weird that we'll spend money on erecting statues of flawed individuals of any kind.I also find some public art as pointless and frankly ridiculous,ie;the "Angel of the North" what is that all about? or "Another Place" on Crosby beach which is of 20 or more(i don'tknow the exact number)cast in the artists image of himself(???)To name but two.
And don't get me started on the price of a Jackson Pollock.......
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Vorpal
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:33pm
Vorpal wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 11:41am
Pebble wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 10:51am
The toppling of the statue was at a BLM protest, the whole incident is reprted as BLM - the four have been referred to as BLM protesters by even the Gaurdian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... lston-four
It seems incredibly odd that they are so wound up about things that happened 400 years ago when it is still happening now. They only seem concerned about black lives when it can be connected to a white person, what is there real motive, reparation? Some in America are suggesting $150,000 for all african americans
They aren't 'wound up about things that happened 400 years ago'. That was never the point of pulling that statue down.

The statue was seen as emblematic of ongoing discrimination and oppression in the UK today. Not just the person that statue was of, but that it made it seem as though the town revered a slaver; that despite years of campaigning folks couldn't get it taken down.

BLM are concerned with the discrimination and oppression that affect their members. Today.

Their real motive is to see changes made that improve lives and reduce inequality, but especially in the justice system, where Blacks and other people of colour are dispropotionately arrested, tried, and gaoled.

Reparations might be appropriate, but I don't think that they are as meaningful as real change.
Apologies and reparations relating to things done by folk who lived centuries ago are pointless. The people apologising are not in a position to apologise because they themselves are innocent, and they are apologising to folk who were not the victims. It gets more complicated and daft when you consider that many of us are mixed race, some without knowing it, so our ancestors were the villain and the victim. So do we apologise to ourselves for what one ancestor did to another? All we can do is improve the world we have, here and now, and not celebrate the worst aspects of the past by having the worst villains on pedestals in places of honour. No destruction is needed, just relocation to a museum and the addition of a new bit of prose to tell the story as we now know it. Job done.
Except that blatant racism & discrimination occur today. Reparations aren't only for what went before, but also what we haven't fixed, yet.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Pebble
Posts: 1933
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Pebble »

Vorpal wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 3:16pm
pwa wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:33pm
Vorpal wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 11:41am

They aren't 'wound up about things that happened 400 years ago'. That was never the point of pulling that statue down.

The statue was seen as emblematic of ongoing discrimination and oppression in the UK today. Not just the person that statue was of, but that it made it seem as though the town revered a slaver; that despite years of campaigning folks couldn't get it taken down.

BLM are concerned with the discrimination and oppression that affect their members. Today.

Their real motive is to see changes made that improve lives and reduce inequality, but especially in the justice system, where Blacks and other people of colour are dispropotionately arrested, tried, and gaoled.

Reparations might be appropriate, but I don't think that they are as meaningful as real change.
Apologies and reparations relating to things done by folk who lived centuries ago are pointless. The people apologising are not in a position to apologise because they themselves are innocent, and they are apologising to folk who were not the victims. It gets more complicated and daft when you consider that many of us are mixed race, some without knowing it, so our ancestors were the villain and the victim. So do we apologise to ourselves for what one ancestor did to another? All we can do is improve the world we have, here and now, and not celebrate the worst aspects of the past by having the worst villains on pedestals in places of honour. No destruction is needed, just relocation to a museum and the addition of a new bit of prose to tell the story as we now know it. Job done.
Except that blatant racism & discrimination occur today. Reparations aren't only for what went before, but also what we haven't fixed, yet.
There is little to no racism now in the UK, yes I'm sure you will find plenty of claims of it in the looney left press of the Guardian and BBC (they seem to have it on the brain) but in real life racism has all but gone. There is nothing stopping anyone getting on and doing well in the UK, you just need to work hard.
Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 4:42pm
Vorpal wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 3:16pm Except that blatant racism & discrimination occur today. Reparations aren't only for what went before, but also what we haven't fixed, yet.
There is little to no racism now in the UK, yes I'm sure you will find plenty of claims of it in the looney left press of the Guardian and BBC (they seem to have it on the brain) but in real life racism has all but gone.
If anyone would like to study how their own mind works on the subject I recommend the Implicit Association Tests:
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 4:42pmThere is nothing stopping anyone getting on and doing well in the UK, you just need to work hard.
Leading-People-1.jpg
https://www.suttontrust.com/our-researc ... ackground/

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 4:42pmThere is little to no racism now in the UK, yes I'm sure you will find plenty of claims of it in the looney left press of the Guardian and BBC (they seem to have it on the brain) but in real life racism has all but gone.
"Nearly half of young Brits believe systemic racism is a major problem facing the UK, according to a new report from BCW and PSB that reveals brands, politicians and institutions face an existential threat from a deepening generational divide."
https://diversityuk.org/young-brits-bel ... m-problem/

Jonathan
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 5:01pm
Pebble wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 4:42pmThere is little to no racism now in the UK, yes I'm sure you will find plenty of claims of it in the looney left press of the Guardian and BBC (they seem to have it on the brain) but in real life racism has all but gone.
"Nearly half of young Brits believe systemic racism is a major problem facing the UK, according to a new report from BCW and PSB that reveals brands, politicians and institutions face an existential threat from a deepening generational divide."
https://diversityuk.org/young-brits-bel ... m-problem/

Jonathan
I am a racist, as indeed we all are. The more enlightened among us recognise when we are racially (or in other ways) stereotyping and we self-correct. But we all have little assumptions about people from groups different to our won, and we have to counter them. Those little assumptions exist in our sub-conscious and pop up from time to time, when they can be examined and assessed.

Overt racism is much reduced now in the UK, but it still exists and it still disadvantages people from some groups. So we are not yet at a point where we can relax about this.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 8:04pm
Jdsk wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 5:01pm
Pebble wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 4:42pmThere is little to no racism now in the UK, yes I'm sure you will find plenty of claims of it in the looney left press of the Guardian and BBC (they seem to have it on the brain) but in real life racism has all but gone.
"Nearly half of young Brits believe systemic racism is a major problem facing the UK, according to a new report from BCW and PSB that reveals brands, politicians and institutions face an existential threat from a deepening generational divide."
https://diversityuk.org/young-brits-bel ... m-problem/
I am a racist, as indeed we all are. The more enlightened among us recognise when we are racially (or in other ways) stereotyping and we self-correct. But we all have little assumptions about people from groups different to our won, and we have to counter them. Those little assumptions exist in our sub-conscious and pop up from time to time, when they can be examined and assessed.
Well put.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 8:04pmOvert racism is much reduced now in the UK, but it still exists and it still disadvantages people from some groups. So we are not yet at a point where we can relax about this.
Yes. Enormous improvement in a few decades. As with tolerance of homosexuality.

And both are useful counters to the view that nothing ever changes. And to Golden Agery.

Jonathan
Bonefishblues
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Both are excellent examples of how legislation can actually lead and influence public behaviour and subsequently public opinion.
Carlton green
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 4:51pm
Pebble wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 4:42pmThere is nothing stopping anyone getting on and doing well in the UK, you just need to work hard.
Leading-People-1.jpg

https://www.suttontrust.com/our-researc ... ackground/

Jonathan
Thank you for that post, interesting and the more so when you consider the small proportion of children who attend private schools. I think that the wealthy are likely to be intellectually stronger and physically more robust than the poor so their offspring should normally be similar, with that in mind one shouldn’t be surprised that the children of those that can afford private education do similarly well. By the better education and personal development offered it seems to me that success is slanted towards those that are privately educated, private schools also typically have able pupils to work with whilst the state system has all comers. The situation is multifactorial.

I don’t dispute Pebbles quoted comment, people can move forwards. However it seems to me that similarly able children will have life paths that are usually determined not by ability alone but rather, instead, heavily influenced by family wealth.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
reohn2
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by reohn2 »

You're on a journey and come to 30mile climb with a constant 20% gradient,your bike has a fixed gear of 55inch and you're loaded for the tour with a rucsac and a coulle of bin bags full of your stuff.
There's someone else there too,s/he has an state of the art e-bike with a 1000watt battery and charging stations every 5miles on the climb,s/he has a full complement of Ortlieb panniers.

Your climb is unbelievably hard,though there's someone to help by giving you a push,the only snag is the pusher has so many others to help his effort is spread so thin,it's so hard for him as he's so busy helping everyone he becomes exhausted,but still tries to help.
Meanwhile the e-bike rider is sailing up the climb plus he also has help from a pusher too,that pusher only pushes e-bike riders and there aren't very many of them so he has much easier life and can take a rest now and again.

A few fixed riders make it to the top by the prescribed route,despite everything thrown at them,but a lot find the climb far too difficult and so seek to find alternative and a sometimes illegal routes,riding on footpaths or are even forced to go through forests and over rough ground where there's wild animals many others take performance enhancing illegal substances to just survive the climb.....

Some of the e-bike riders help the fixed riders,some choose to just ignore them,others ridicule them for their lack of equipement and even actively try to bring them off their bikes.

It's obvious the fixed gear riders are inadequately equiped but they've no choice as they have make the journey even though they can't afford adequate bikes or equipement.

The ride is life,the pushers are money,the e-bike is the privilege money buys.
By contrast the e-bikers have the best kit and the best help available.



It needn't be this way.......
Last edited by reohn2 on 16 Jan 2022, 9:12am, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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