Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

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Vorpal
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Vorpal »

Pebble wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 12:22pm
And likewise, are those who dismiss it are doing so as it does not fit their own prejudices
I was a little sceptical when it first come out, but it was not the findings of just one person. So who were the commissioners of the report
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... ssible.pdf
hardly a whitewash....
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/n ... e-problem/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 8520966947
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2020-12-14
https://theconversation.com/how-racist- ... -us-141657
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... racism-law
there were 6 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 54 for every 1,000 Black people
children in Asian (27%) and Black (22%) households were more likely to be in persistent low income than children in White (11%) households
the households with the highest rates of overcrowding were in the Bangladeshi (24%), Pakistani (18%), Black African (16%), Arab (15%) and Mixed White and Black African (14%) ethnic groups
2% of White British households were overcrowded
in 2018, 7% of White NHS staff in England said they had experienced discrimination at work from a manager, team leader or other colleague in the last 12 months, compared with 15% of staff from the Other ethnic group (all other ethnic groups combined)
all from government figures https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Pebble
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Pebble »

Vorpal wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 6:06pm
Pebble wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 12:22pm
And likewise, are those who dismiss it are doing so as it does not fit their own prejudices
I was a little sceptical when it first come out, but it was not the findings of just one person. So who were the commissioners of the report
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... ssible.pdf
hardly a whitewash....
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/n ... e-problem/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 8520966947
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2020-12-14
https://theconversation.com/how-racist- ... -us-141657
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... racism-law
there were 6 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 54 for every 1,000 Black people
children in Asian (27%) and Black (22%) households were more likely to be in persistent low income than children in White (11%) households
the households with the highest rates of overcrowding were in the Bangladeshi (24%), Pakistani (18%), Black African (16%), Arab (15%) and Mixed White and Black African (14%) ethnic groups
2% of White British households were overcrowded
in 2018, 7% of White NHS staff in England said they had experienced discrimination at work from a manager, team leader or other colleague in the last 12 months, compared with 15% of staff from the Other ethnic group (all other ethnic groups combined)
all from government figures https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/
Well, there you go - you have found some stuff that fits your prejudices. (or at least that is how my links were responded to)

Does not explain how this enables Chinese and Indian ethnicities to be the best paid in the UK, or how black people have become so dominant in sport, football, media, news advertising, TV, arts, music.... And good luck to all of them, if you work hard and have talents then you deserve the rewards, no complaints from me, it is the way it should be - but it is becoming ridiculous screaming racism at about everything.
Vorpal
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Vorpal »

Pebble wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 12:25am Well, there you go - you have found some stuff that fits your prejudices. (or at least that is how my links were responded to)

Does not explain how this enables Chinese and Indian ethnicities to be the best paid in the UK, or how black people have become so dominant in sport, football, media, news advertising, TV, arts, music.... And good luck to all of them, if you work hard and have talents then you deserve the rewards, no complaints from me, it is the way it should be - but it is becoming ridiculous screaming racism at about everything.
You produced a report that has been widely disparaged by experts.

I posted evidence, including studies with much wider populations than what you posted, and you dismiss it as 'stuff that fits my prejudices'.

Chinese and Indian workers are not the 'best paid in the UK'. They have higher average salaries because a higher proportion of them are working in professional jobs. There are still pay gaps in many jobs, especially lower waged ones. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48919813


As for sports, team sports are, and have been for some years a fairly inclusive environment. Black people, especially boys are encouraged to enter sports,and sport offers a pretty accepting environment. That doesn't mean that there isn't racism, even if it is less in sport. It also doesn't mean that there isn't racism in many (most) other places. How many Black team managers are there? Or team physios, or doctors? Or coaches?


As for the media, arts, etc. minorities do not dominate. If you see representation there, I have to ask, why do you notice?

Or perhaps, I can recommend this ofcom report, which is updated every 5 years https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-o ... -and-radio

and clearly shows that counter to what media like the Daily M*il report, there are still gaps in many areas, though it's better than it used to be.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
mattheus
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by mattheus »

Vorpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:27am Chinese and Indian workers are not the 'best paid in the UK'. They have higher average salaries because a higher proportion of them are working in professional jobs.
Oh dear - I guess that didn't work out very well for them then. Would you suggest they go for NON-professional jobs?

(I think you may have made pebble's point for him there!)
Vorpal
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Vorpal »

mattheus wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:58am
Vorpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:27am Chinese and Indian workers are not the 'best paid in the UK'. They have higher average salaries because a higher proportion of them are working in professional jobs.
Oh dear - I guess that didn't work out very well for them then. Would you suggest they go for NON-professional jobs?

(I think you may have made pebble's point for him there!)
They are still paid less than their white counterparts.

in 2019, 21.4% of workers in the UK were in ‘professional’ jobs – the highest percentage out of all types of occupation
33.2% of workers from the Indian ethnic group were in 'professional' jobs, the highest percentage out of all ethnic groups in this role
(from ONS as linked above)

However, they still face pay gaps (e.g. an Indian engineer might earn 10% less than white counterparts), although pay gaps have narrowed somewhat in the last decade. How big the gap is varies considerably with job and company. Conscientious companies have reviews of this & work to narrow the gap.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... ifications
https://www.pwc.co.uk/press-room/press- ... -gaps.html

edited to add: Ethnic minorities are still discriminated against in higher education, as well. Despite higher numbers of Indians working in professional jobs, the offer rate for universities is still lower than that for whites https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58640992

Ethnic minorities in general are nonetheless more likely to attend higher education. The reason for this is not entirely explained
https://ifs.org.uk/publications/8042
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Pebble
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Pebble »

Vorpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:27am
As for the media, arts, etc. minorities do not dominate. If you see representation there, I have to ask, why do you notice?
you just seem to be cherry picking waht suits your own prejudices! and your mind seems closed so not much point in going further.

But to answer the bit quoted - I never took any notice whatsoever until BLM came along, and with the incessant complaining and the unparalleled coverage they get from the likes of the BBC, I started to take notice and began to question are we really a racist nation. And from everything I have seen since I have slowly but surely come to the conclusion we hare not. If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from

I must stress I couldn't care less what race someone is, I never have and I never will. But since BLM and the coverage it gets from the likes of the BBC I have been taking notice, and their share of about everything on TV from sport thru the arts to politics is considerably above their 3% representation in society, it is more like 20%. And yet they still complain!
Vorpal
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Vorpal »

Pebble wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 12:54am
you just seem to be cherry picking waht suits your own prejudices!
I do not think that this means what you think it means.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 12:54am
Vorpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:27am As for the media, arts, etc. minorities do not dominate. If you see representation there, I have to ask, why do you notice?
you just seem to be cherry picking waht suits your own prejudices! and your mind seems closed so not much point in going further.
It doesn't look like that to me. One useful pointer in any discussion of this type is to see who is trying to support their views with evidence. And to look at the quality of that evidence. That's what can take a discussion away from he says/ she says.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:58am
Vorpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:27am Chinese and Indian workers are not the 'best paid in the UK'. They have higher average salaries because a higher proportion of them are working in professional jobs.
Oh dear - I guess that didn't work out very well for them then. Would you suggest they go for NON-professional jobs?
if the outcome of interest is pay it's essential to compare like for like. In this case that means comparing the effect of ethnicity on pay for the same job.

But it is also interesting to study the distribution of ethnicity by type of job. It looks as if that effect is also involved here.

And in this area it's going to be very hard to find genuine effects unless at least two other factors are taken into account: the relationship between sex and pay, and the secular changes.

Jonathan

PS: What job matching actually means was at the root of a hallmark case: the Dagenham sewing machinists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_sewi ... ke_of_1968
Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 12:54amBut to answer the bit quoted - I never took any notice whatsoever until BLM came along, and with the incessant complaining and the unparalleled coverage they get from the likes of the BBC, I started to take notice and began to question are we really a racist nation. And from everything I have seen since I have slowly but surely come to the conclusion we hare not. If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from

I must stress I couldn't care less what race someone is, I never have and I never will. But since BLM and the coverage it gets from the likes of the BBC I have been taking notice, and their share of about everything on TV from sport thru the arts to politics is considerably above their 3% representation in society, it is more like 20%. And yet they still complain!
My emboldening.

Who's "we" and "they", please?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: "Are we really a racist nation?" is never going to have a binary answer. More useful questions might be "Does racial discrimination exist?", "Is it getting better or worse?", "What are the appropriate countermeasures?".
Last edited by Jdsk on 20 Jan 2022, 8:55am, edited 1 time in total.
Carlton green
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Carlton green »

Pebble wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 12:54am If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from
This main topic of the thread is a somewhat contentious and I’m staying away from it.

I don’t mean to cherry pick sentences or comments but I don’t think that this is quire right: “If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from”. To my mind it paints a misleading picture but I would agree that most folk can better themselves if they apply themselves to that objective in a constructive way.

Does hard work lead to success and if so how is it quantified and what does hard work actually mean? Someone somewhere will have unbiased and meaningful data on the progress of individuals. My own observation is that folk who have wealthy, caring, educated and intelligent parents (either natural or adopted) typically get on considerably better and achieve more than those that don’t. It isn’t all about the individual and a chunk of progress through life is due to how the tables are tilted for or against you.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 8:55am
Pebble wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 12:54am If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from
I don’t mean to cherry pick sentences or comments but I don’t think that this is quire right: “If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from”. To my mind it paints a misleading picture but I would agree that most folk can better themselves if they apply themselves to that objective in a constructive way.
And it's a rhetorical trick because it can be followed by anecdotal reference to an individual black woman who has been successful, and voilà, there can't be any racism at all.

Of course it's actually multifactorial. And hard work has an enormous effect.

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by reohn2 »

Carlton green wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 8:55am ..... It isn’t all about the individual and a chunk of progress through life is due to how the tables are tilted for or against you.
The current PM is a classic example of privilege of wealth,there are other examples
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Jdsk
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 8:55amDoes hard work lead to success and if so how is it quantified and what does hard work actually mean? Someone somewhere will have unbiased and meaningful data on the progress of individuals. My own observation is that folk who have wealthy, caring, educated and intelligent parents (either natural or adopted) typically get on considerably better and achieve more than those that don’t. It isn’t all about the individual and a chunk of progress through life is due to how the tables are tilted for or against you.
You're not wrong. The statistics support that. And we're gradually working out how it happens. Lots of factors, and it's a lot easier following well-worn grooves than having to create a route all by yourself.

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Re: Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 9:00am
Carlton green wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 8:55am
Pebble wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 12:54am If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from
I don’t mean to cherry pick sentences or comments but I don’t think that this is quire right: “If you work hard you can do well no matter who you are or where you are from”. To my mind it paints a misleading picture but I would agree that most folk can better themselves if they apply themselves to that objective in a constructive way.
And it's a rhetorical trick because it can be followed by anecdotal reference to an individual black woman who has been successful, and voilà, there can't be any racism at all.

Of course it's actually multifactorial. And hard work has an enormous effect.

Jonathan
I really do want to take race away from the point that I was trying to make, sorry if that was not clear.

By the way have you a definition of what hard work is and how it is quantified? I find that sawing wood is hard work but that’s not quantified and a sharp saw with a good set on it enables me to make better progress ... not much quantification there either.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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