Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

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SupermanVsSnowman
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by SupermanVsSnowman »

Nigel wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 1:44pm Scottish Borders council put 20mph limits in just about every town and village last year for an 18 month trial.

A first round of traffic speed data is reported here:
http://scottishborders.tracsis-tads.com/conduit/borders

For the few roads I cross-checked the speeds reported match what I've observed as motorist, pedestrian and cyclist.
20mph OUCH! Thats about my typical speed on a push bike (my aero one). I will frequently hit 30 or so on the downhill bits too. I'd be going insane if I was forced to do 20 in a car. Just leave it at 30.
mattheus wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 12:37pm A visitor writes ...

I rode through a few Borders towns during a Friday rush-hour in October. It was delightful! At first I wondered if local drivers were a bit simple - they just hung behind me on very wide roads without passing. After about 30minutes of this I noticed the 20 signs !!

(I think Galashiels and Peebles were the main examples, I was heading broadly East to Jedburgh.)

To be fair, I encountered negligible impatience/aggression between Mull of Galloway and Berwick, a most civilised region for touring.
Similar thing happened to me once but as a motorcyclist. Riding through the Beacons in Wales. Came to a line of traffic doing 30ish mph on a 60mph road and I was like astonishing? I just overtook the lot doing about 50-60ish. While I did notice a cop car in a layby, it didn't really explain why every one was dawdling. It was night time but visibility was fair. However after passing all that I noticed a sign but didn't quite make out what it said (I tend not to look for them specifically when on familiar roads).Turns out that the road I had been motorcycling on frequently for over a decade was now a 30mph limit. {FFE - family-friendly edit }!
OH CACK! I just dropped my d-lock, shattering the JWST primary mirrors! I'll just say I was on the toilet when I heard something smash.
thirdcrank
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by thirdcrank »

Another thing about familiar roads is there's never anything around all the blind bends or over the blind summits...........until there is.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Bmblbzzz »

SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:00am
Nigel wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 1:44pm Scottish Borders council put 20mph limits in just about every town and village last year for an 18 month trial.

A first round of traffic speed data is reported here:
http://scottishborders.tracsis-tads.com/conduit/borders

For the few roads I cross-checked the speeds reported match what I've observed as motorist, pedestrian and cyclist.
20mph OUCH! Thats about my typical speed on a push bike (my aero one). I will frequently hit 30 or so on the downhill bits too. I'd be going insane if I was forced to do 20 in a car. Just leave it at 30.
mattheus wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 12:37pm A visitor writes ...

I rode through a few Borders towns during a Friday rush-hour in October. It was delightful! At first I wondered if local drivers were a bit simple - they just hung behind me on very wide roads without passing. After about 30minutes of this I noticed the 20 signs !!

(I think Galashiels and Peebles were the main examples, I was heading broadly East to Jedburgh.)

To be fair, I encountered negligible impatience/aggression between Mull of Galloway and Berwick, a most civilised region for touring.
Similar thing happened to me once but as a motorcyclist. Riding through the Beacons in Wales. Came to a line of traffic doing 30ish mph on a 60mph road and I was like astonishing? I just overtook the lot doing about 50-60ish. While I did notice a cop car in a layby, it didn't really explain why every one was dawdling. It was night time but visibility was fair. However after passing all that I noticed a sign but didn't quite make out what it said (I tend not to look for them specifically when on familiar roads).Turns out that the road I had been motorcycling on frequently for over a decade was now a 30mph limit. {FFE - family-friendly edit }!
Fast is fun and acceleration is exhilaration. Observation saves licences, lives and localities. Patience or patients?
Mike Sales
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:00am . I'd be going insane if I was forced to do 20 in a car. Just leave it at 30.
Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?
It might help to understand why so many drivers break speed limits and make risky overtakes rather than slow down.
This sort of driving makes the roads more intimidating for everybody.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
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SupermanVsSnowman
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by SupermanVsSnowman »

Mike Sales wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 3:19pm
SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:00am . I'd be going insane if I was forced to do 20 in a car. Just leave it at 30.
Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?
It might help to understand why so many drivers break speed limits and make risky overtakes rather than slow down.
This sort of driving makes the roads more intimidating for everybody.
20mph is excessively slow. There are places where you would drive 20 or lower such as car parks or past schools. For general main roads through villages 30mph is generally sufficient.

On an open road, forcing drivers to go slowly is very frustrating for many people. Frustrated drivers are more likely to act irrationally. I do not condone driving in an unsafe manner. I believe there is a balance to be achieved between allowing people to drive faster and being safer on the road. Currently it is being unfavourably tipped towards making people drive slower when not always necessary.

Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?

Being tailgated. This was my number one most hated behaviour on the road. As a motorcyclist, if I needed to brake hard then I could end up with a wheelchair while the motorist behind ends up with a dent in his bonnet. This was common in wet conditions where I had to reduce my speed accordingly. Those yellow god dammed avg speed cams are unable to pick this sort of behaviour up. They can generate a fine for someing doing 58mph on a 50mph stretch of motorway. This is what grips my dung. Speed is only one factor, and it isn't usually the biggest one either. Where there is little risk of a driver causing harm to anyone else, I say leave them speed on.

The biggest hazard to me as a cyclist (and when I was a motorcyclist) are drivers lack of awareness, impatience at junctions and roundabouts and general arsiness. Speed alone is rarely an issue for me yet that is the issue that is the most widely enforced. I'm not saying it should be ignored completely. I am saying more enforcement is needed tackling bad driving in general.
OH CACK! I just dropped my d-lock, shattering the JWST primary mirrors! I'll just say I was on the toilet when I heard something smash.
Nigel
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Nigel »

SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 11:18pm
Mike Sales wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 3:19pm
SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:00am . I'd be going insane if I was forced to do 20 in a car. Just leave it at 30.
Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?
It might help to understand why so many drivers break speed limits and make risky overtakes rather than slow down.
This sort of driving makes the roads more intimidating for everybody.
20mph is excessively slow. There are places where you would drive 20 or lower such as car parks or past schools. For general main roads through villages 30mph is generally sufficient.

On an open road, forcing drivers to go slowly is very frustrating for many people. Frustrated drivers are more likely to act irrationally. I do not condone driving in an unsafe manner. I believe there is a balance to be achieved between allowing people to drive faster and being safer on the road. Currently it is being unfavourably tipped towards making people drive slower when not always necessary.
Disagree, and this isn't open roads.
Try being a pedestrian in those villages or towns, often narrow or no pavement, often narrow roads so a vehicle is very close to any pavement. The difference for a pedestrian between 20mph and 30mph traffic is quite marked. The difference if there is an accident is huge.
Why are car parks a special case ? Its not about car owners, its all the other people who don't have cars for their transport.

Speed is a matter of perception, and it can take time to adjust to the new speeds. When the local 20mph restrictions came in, I found it felt odd to be driving slower along some urban roads. I used the speed-limiter button in my car (many cars with cruise control have them) to lock the max speed at 20 when in a restricted area. A few days of that, and 20 was no longer strange.



Yes, agree there are problems with lack of policing of poor driving, including tailgating and aggressive behaviour.
Mike Sales
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 11:18pm
Mike Sales wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 3:19pm
SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:00am . I'd be going insane if I was forced to do 20 in a car. Just leave it at 30.
Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?
It might help to understand why so many drivers break speed limits and make risky overtakes rather than slow down.
This sort of driving makes the roads more intimidating for everybody.
20mph is excessively slow. There are places where you would drive 20 or lower such as car parks or past schools. For general main roads through villages 30mph is generally sufficient.

On an open road, forcing drivers to go slowly is very frustrating for many people. Frustrated drivers are more likely to act irrationally. I do not condone driving in an unsafe manner. I believe there is a balance to be achieved between allowing people to drive faster and being safer on the road. Currently it is being unfavourably tipped towards making people drive slower when not always necessary.

Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?

Being tailgated. This was my number one most hated behaviour on the road. As a motorcyclist, if I needed to brake hard then I could end up with a wheelchair while the motorist behind ends up with a dent in his bonnet. This was common in wet conditions where I had to reduce my speed accordingly. Those yellow god dammed avg speed cams are unable to pick this sort of behaviour up. They can generate a fine for someing doing 58mph on a 50mph stretch of motorway. This is what grips my dung. Speed is only one factor, and it isn't usually the biggest one either. Where there is little risk of a driver causing harm to anyone else, I say leave them speed on.

The biggest hazard to me as a cyclist (and when I was a motorcyclist) are drivers lack of awareness, impatience at junctions and roundabouts and general arsiness. Speed alone is rarely an issue for me yet that is the issue that is the most widely enforced. I'm not saying it should be ignored completely. I am saying more enforcement is needed tackling bad driving in general.
Excessively slow!!
You do not answer my main question. Why is it so onerous, so frustrating to drive a little slower? This impatience is at the root of many dangerous manoeuvres by drivers. It would contribute to road safety to know why so many drivers speed, and are so reluctant to wait for a safe overtaking opportunity.
You make the ABD (Association of British Drivers) false dichotomy between excess speed and dangerous driving.
Excess speed is dangerous driving. It increases reaction distance, braking distance and kinetic energy in any collision and so is more likely to kill or maim.
Good driving is leaving room for mistakes, yours and others. If a child runs out in a 20mph zone, you will have more chance of avoiding hitting him/her, if you ease off the accelerator.
Speeding convictions correlate with accidents.
Tailgating is indeed a nasty habit. Such drivers should learn to take it easy too. Breaking the law yourself is not a good response. If anything it will confirm them in their bad habit. The usual advice with bullies is not to give in to them.
Likewise to allow those frustrated by having to behave with consideration for others to ignore their safety is a poor course of action.
Speeding vehicles enforce the supremacy of the motor. They drive more vulnerable users off the road and make the public highway a reserve for the less vulnerable and more dangerous.
Please, conciously ease off your accelerator. Relax and make the road a more friendly place.
And again, why do you and other drivers find driving more slowly so irksome?
You seem to take it for granted such behaviour, which increases road danger, is understandable, natural and exusable.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 23 Dec 2021, 2:15pm, edited 2 times in total.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Bmblbzzz »

SvsS is IMO correct to state that lack of attention etc are usually greater safety risks than simple speed. But the case for lower speeds is not only about safety. It's about amenity, community, usability by non-motorised persons, health (physical and mental), local economy...
Mike Sales
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 1:40pm SvsS is IMO correct to state that lack of attention etc are usually greater safety risks than simple speed. But the case for lower speeds is not only about safety. It's about amenity, community, usability by non-motorised persons, health (physical and mental), local economy...
As I said above, this theory is not really useful. Careless drivers go faster, and faster drivers have less time to take care, and to compensate for anybody's mistakes. Speeding is indeed a form of carelessness. Making this false distinction is the usual claim of drivers who want to go too fast for other's comfort.
I quite agree that the impact on amenity etc. is very important. The roads are for all users, not just for drivers.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Pebble
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Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pebble »

I too found the 20mph a bit slow at first, but after a month or two it now just seems more natural. I'm often over the border in Northumberland and now feel 30 is pretty fast in towns and villages, I sometimes forget and drive at 20 - WOW the anger from anyone behind!

20 should be rolled out across the UK and ruthlessly enforced. Why not pass enforcement over to local councils and let them keep the money they raise, better than putting up rates.


Nigel wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 11:09am
Cycling in towns remains a "dodge the pothole and awful road surface" problem, the roads in many Borders towns seem to be a competition to make the roughest surface possible. Speed limits are largely irrelevant to this issue.
certainly agree with that, road surfaces in towns is just horrendous, have been through both Coldstream and Hawick this week, both equally as bad, both getting to the stage where the road surface is not really suitable for a road bike. Just awful trying to dodge round the really bad bits whilst simultaneously being passed by impatient drivers.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Mike Sales wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 1:50pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 1:40pm SvsS is IMO correct to state that lack of attention etc are usually greater safety risks than simple speed. But the case for lower speeds is not only about safety. It's about amenity, community, usability by non-motorised persons, health (physical and mental), local economy...
As I said above, this theory is not really useful. Careless drivers go faster, and faster drivers have less time to take care, and to compensate for anybody's mistakes. Speeding is indeed a form of carelessness. Making this false distinction is the usual claim of drivers who want to go too fast for other's comfort.
I don't see this as an either/or thing, though I appreciate it's often used as an excuse for speeding. Rather, it's that carelessness is dangerous at any speed.
I quite agree that the impact on amenity etc. is very important. The roads are for all users, not just for drivers.
I'd actually rate this as more of a bonus of 20mph than the safety. I live in a 20mph urban zone, by the way.
Pebble wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 4:41pm 20 should be rolled out across the UK and ruthlessly enforced. Why not pass enforcement over to local councils and let them keep the money they raise, better than putting up rates.
I'm unsure on the benefits of who gets the fines, but definitely agree with 20mph being the standard across UK – in fact there was, a few years ago, a campaign to make 30km/h the default built-up area speed limit across the EU (this was pre-Brexit) with the onus being on HAs to justify higher limits.
Last edited by Bmblbzzz on 23 Dec 2021, 5:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pebble
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pebble »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 5:17pm
I don't see this as an either/or thing, though I appreciate it's often used as an excuse for speeding. Rather, it's that carelessness is dangerous at any speed.
Being careless at 70mph in a car is very likely to create more damage than being careless at 5mph. Slower speeds also gives other road users more time to mitigate the mistake
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Pebble wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 5:26pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 5:17pm
I don't see this as an either/or thing, though I appreciate it's often used as an excuse for speeding. Rather, it's that carelessness is dangerous at any speed.
Being careless at 70mph in a car is very likely to create more damage than being careless at 5mph. Slower speeds also gives other road users more time to mitigate the mistake
I'd say that being careful at 70mph can create more damage than being careless at 5mph, particularly when we take non-collision damage into account. But being careless at 5mph, or even when stationary, can still create damage. This is not an argument in favour of speed, it's an argument in favour of both more care and less speed. They are combinational, not alternatives.
pwa
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by pwa »

I agree that 20mph makes a lot more sense than 30mph in residential areas, but we need to recognise that there will be a financial cost to all of us. We all rely of delivery drivers these days, and the cost of deliveries is largely dictated by how many drops can be done in an hour or a day. A widespread 20mph limit will reduce that significantly. Delivery costs will increase as it takes more vans and drivers to deliver the same number of items. I'm not using that as an argument against a default 20mph limit, but we should be willing to accept that extra cost.
Mike Sales
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Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

pwa wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 6:57am I agree that 20mph makes a lot more sense than 30mph in residential areas, but we need to recognise that there will be a financial cost to all of us. We all rely of delivery drivers these days, and the cost of deliveries is largely dictated by how many drops can be done in an hour or a day. A widespread 20mph limit will reduce that significantly. Delivery costs will increase as it takes more vans and drivers to deliver the same number of items. I'm not using that as an argument against a default 20mph limit, but we should be willing to accept that extra cost.

Yes, dangerous roads is an external cost of delivery, which should be allocated to those who might benefit by going faster.
I would question, though, whether faster driving saves much time. We are all familiar with the driver who is impatient to reach the back of the queue at the lights ahead of the bike " holding him up." Does all that heavy footed aggressive driving really save a significant amount of time?
It comes down to the inner urge that drivers seem to have, to go faster, whether it is really saving time, or anything else.
We have a name for it. MGIF.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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