Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Pebble
Posts: 1933
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pebble »

pwa wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 6:57am I agree that 20mph makes a lot more sense than 30mph in residential areas, but we need to recognise that there will be a financial cost to all of us. We all rely of delivery drivers these days, and the cost of deliveries is largely dictated by how many drops can be done in an hour or a day. A widespread 20mph limit will reduce that significantly. Delivery costs will increase as it takes more vans and drivers to deliver the same number of items. I'm not using that as an argument against a default 20mph limit, but we should be willing to accept that extra cost.
Could make similar argument against cycling - cycling is invariably slower for most journeys, (I could be at my local shops in the car by the time I get my cycling clobber on) . Cycling will slow down the economy and could ultimately put costs up to all of us, and we can't have that, need to speed up the economy and productivity, we're in a race to our doom.
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by pwa »

Pebble wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 8:55am
pwa wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 6:57am I agree that 20mph makes a lot more sense than 30mph in residential areas, but we need to recognise that there will be a financial cost to all of us. We all rely of delivery drivers these days, and the cost of deliveries is largely dictated by how many drops can be done in an hour or a day. A widespread 20mph limit will reduce that significantly. Delivery costs will increase as it takes more vans and drivers to deliver the same number of items. I'm not using that as an argument against a default 20mph limit, but we should be willing to accept that extra cost.
Could make similar argument against cycling - cycling is invariably slower for most journeys, (I could be at my local shops in the car by the time I get my cycling clobber on) . Cycling will slow down the economy and could ultimately put costs up to all of us, and we can't have that, need to speed up the economy and productivity, we're in a race to our doom.
My point is simply that there will be a financial cost through higher delivery charges, and we must accept that. I know from my own work life that being able to travel at up to 30 mph (where it seems safe) allows me to get through urban areas a bit quicker than will be the case when the limit comes down to 20. That is driving in a smooth and conservative way. But I accept the benefits of a lower limit, I just think we need to go into it with open eyes. If we want delivery drivers to go slower, which we do, we will need more of them, each delivering less. And we must pay for that.
User avatar
SupermanVsSnowman
Posts: 36
Joined: 23 Sep 2021, 7:56am

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by SupermanVsSnowman »

Mike Sales wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 1:22pm
SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 11:18pm
Mike Sales wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 3:19pm

Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?
It might help to understand why so many drivers break speed limits and make risky overtakes rather than slow down.
This sort of driving makes the roads more intimidating for everybody.
20mph is excessively slow. There are places where you would drive 20 or lower such as car parks or past schools. For general main roads through villages 30mph is generally sufficient.

On an open road, forcing drivers to go slowly is very frustrating for many people. Frustrated drivers are more likely to act irrationally. I do not condone driving in an unsafe manner. I believe there is a balance to be achieved between allowing people to drive faster and being safer on the road. Currently it is being unfavourably tipped towards making people drive slower when not always necessary.

Would you please try to explain exactly what you find so unpleasant about relaxing a bit and taking things easy?

Being tailgated. This was my number one most hated behaviour on the road. As a motorcyclist, if I needed to brake hard then I could end up with a wheelchair while the motorist behind ends up with a dent in his bonnet. This was common in wet conditions where I had to reduce my speed accordingly. Those yellow god dammed avg speed cams are unable to pick this sort of behaviour up. They can generate a fine for someing doing 58mph on a 50mph stretch of motorway. This is what grips my dung. Speed is only one factor, and it isn't usually the biggest one either. Where there is little risk of a driver causing harm to anyone else, I say leave them speed on.

The biggest hazard to me as a cyclist (and when I was a motorcyclist) are drivers lack of awareness, impatience at junctions and roundabouts and general arsiness. Speed alone is rarely an issue for me yet that is the issue that is the most widely enforced. I'm not saying it should be ignored completely. I am saying more enforcement is needed tackling bad driving in general.
Excessively slow!!
You do not answer my main question. Why is it so onerous, so frustrating to drive a little slower? This impatience is at the root of many dangerous manoeuvres by drivers. It would contribute to road safety to know why so many drivers speed, and are so reluctant to wait for a safe overtaking opportunity.
You make the ABD (Association of British Drivers) false dichotomy between excess speed and dangerous driving.
Excess speed is dangerous driving. It increases reaction distance, braking distance and kinetic energy in any collision and so is more likely to kill or maim.
Good driving is leaving room for mistakes, yours and others. If a child runs out in a 20mph zone, you will have more chance of avoiding hitting him/her, if you ease off the accelerator.
Speeding convictions correlate with accidents.
Tailgating is indeed a nasty habit. Such drivers should learn to take it easy too. Breaking the law yourself is not a good response. If anything it will confirm them in their bad habit. The usual advice with bullies is not to give in to them.
Likewise to allow those frustrated by having to behave with consideration for others to ignore their safety is a poor course of action.
Speeding vehicles enforce the supremacy of the motor. They drive more vulnerable users off the road and make the public highway a reserve for the less vulnerable and more dangerous.
Please, conciously ease off your accelerator. Relax and make the road a more friendly place.
And again, why do you and other drivers find driving more slowly so irksome?
You seem to take it for granted such behaviour, which increases road danger, is understandable, natural and exusable.
My apologies. I am wrong and I take back everything I said.


What is your opinion on acquiring a driving license compared to acquiring a firearms license? By which I mean, you need a good reason to have a gun. No criminal history etc. I'd go for that. As much as I blah blah speeding blah, we can all agree the licensing needs an overhaul.


A gun can kill people. So can a car. So much easier to get a car license tho, and way easier to get off a sentence when you do.
OH CACK! I just dropped my d-lock, shattering the JWST primary mirrors! I'll just say I was on the toilet when I heard something smash.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7882
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 11:11am [

My apologies. I am wrong and I take back everything I said.


What is your opinion on acquiring a driving license compared to acquiring a firearms license? By which I mean, you need a good reason to have a gun. No criminal history etc. I'd go for that. As much as I blah blah speeding blah, we can all agree the licensing needs an overhaul.


A gun can kill people. So can a car. So much easier to get a car license tho, and way easier to get off a sentence when you do.
A graceful and unusual recantation.
I agree that licensing of drivers needs to be much more rigorous.
Many drivers seem to lack enough emotional maturity to be in charge of a tone or so of speeding metal.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
mattheus
Posts: 5043
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by mattheus »

pwa wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 10:00am
Pebble wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 8:55am
pwa wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 6:57am I agree that 20mph makes a lot more sense than 30mph in residential areas, but we need to recognise that there will be a financial cost to all of us. We all rely of delivery drivers these days, and the cost of deliveries is largely dictated by how many drops can be done in an hour or a day. A widespread 20mph limit will reduce that significantly. Delivery costs will increase as it takes more vans and drivers to deliver the same number of items. I'm not using that as an argument against a default 20mph limit, but we should be willing to accept that extra cost.
Could make similar argument against cycling - cycling is invariably slower for most journeys, (I could be at my local shops in the car by the time I get my cycling clobber on) . Cycling will slow down the economy and could ultimately put costs up to all of us, and we can't have that, need to speed up the economy and productivity, we're in a race to our doom.
My point is simply that there will be a financial cost through higher delivery charges, and we must accept that. I know from my own work life that being able to travel at up to 30 mph (where it seems safe) allows me to get through urban areas a bit quicker than will be the case when the limit comes down to 20. That is driving in a smooth and conservative way. But I accept the benefits of a lower limit, I just think we need to go into it with open eyes. If we want delivery drivers to go slower, which we do, we will need more of them, each delivering less. And we must pay for that.
Have you actually measured this effect? And then costed it from the POV of the couriers?
We're talking a few pennies per package, at worste.

And if that means the drivers doing less harm in built-up areas, bring it on.
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by pwa »

mattheus wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 1:17pm
..........Have you actually measured this effect? And then costed it from the POV of the couriers?
We're talking a few pennies per package, at worste.

And if that means the drivers doing less harm in built-up areas, bring it on.
No, I haven't costed it, but in the course of my own work I do drive in urban areas and I know that a reduction in the default speed limit from 30 to 20 will have a real impact on the time it takes me to get from A to B. I have been thinking about that as I drive. Not as much as 33%, of course, because even in existing 30 areas you end up travelling slower than that a lot of the time, but I will be covering less miles in an hour. For a door to door package delivery person, or Tesco delivering your shopping, I imagine there will be a drop in the number of customers who can be reached by a vehicle and its driver in a shift, which means we will be paying a bit more for deliveries. I think it will be worth it, but we should be ready for that.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by thirdcrank »

A lot must depend on how well a lower limit is observed. I wouldn't describe eg 20-30% sticking to the limit with the rest lining up to force their way past as "being observed." However, if the great majority of drivers are sticking to 20mph, then drivers waiting to emerge from side roads will have more opportunities to do so safely. This is the application of my description of road space as an economic "good." In short, the faster a vehicle is being driven, the more road space in front of it the driver is consuming. There comes a speed when traffic is moving so fast that safely joining a line is impossible; in fact, the space occupied by many of those vehicles will overlap the one in front, leading to a shunt if anything goes wrong.

In short, this isn't just a question of distance/speed.
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6258
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Bmblbzzz »

If 30% of drivers are sticking to the limit because they want to (whether that means because they think it's a good thing to do or because they fear the penalty or for any other reason) than most of the remaining 70% are forced to stick to it because overtaking opportunities in urban areas are limited (for cars and larger vehicles).
Mike Sales
Posts: 7882
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Mike Sales »

pwa wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 4:48pm
No, I haven't costed it, but in the course of my own work I do drive in urban areas and I know that a reduction in the default speed limit from 30 to 20 will have a real impact on the time it takes me to get from A to B. I have been thinking about that as I drive. Not as much as 33%, of course, because even in existing 30 areas you end up travelling slower than that a lot of the time, but I will be covering less miles in an hour. For a door to door package delivery person, or Tesco delivering your shopping, I imagine there will be a drop in the number of customers who can be reached by a vehicle and its driver in a shift, which means we will be paying a bit more for deliveries. I think it will be worth it, but we should be ready for that.
It is obvious how important drivers see it to get to their objective as quickly as they can. They are willing to take risks to get ahead. MGIF.
We cyclists so often catch up at the next lights, or the next queue of motor vehicles. I sometimes squeeze past to rub in the futility of their irrational impulse. Sometimes I just waiit, occupying my place on the road.
Without this useless hurry the roads would be less unpleasant to use.
There is something about using a vehicle which can go fast which makes drivers feel the need to save a few seconds. The real cost of relaxed driving will be tiny: the benfits will be huge. We do not have to indulge this neuorosis.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pete Owens »

And since they are only getting to he back of the next lights it doesn't actually save any time at all on their overall journey.

In towns, the speed limit is irrelevant when it comes to journey time. That is controlled by the rate at which traffic can pass through bottlenecks. Typically most of the time is spent in queues at traffic lights. It really doesn't matter how soon you reach the back of a queue; the time you pass the lights is entirely dependent on how the rate at which the lights can deal with the number of vehicles in front.

I am reminded of an advert for a cigar brand (in the days when such things were still allowed). A plane lands at an airport and there is the usual rush of passengers to open the overhead lockers and push and shove towards the exit. All except for one passenger, who calmly remains seated finishing off his cigar. You then see the passengers rushing through the airport as the smoking passenger finishes his cigar, gets up, calmly picks up his hand luggage and strolls off after them. Then we see the passengers all crowding round the empty luggage carrousel. Then just as the cigar gets to the carousel the luggage starts to arrive. Of course the smokers bag is put on first; he taps a passenger on the shoulder as his bag approaches, collects it and is off.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pete Owens »

Pebble wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 8:55am Could make similar argument against cycling - cycling is invariably slower for most journeys, (I could be at my local shops in the car by the time I get my cycling clobber on) .
Except in towns that simply isn't true (At least for those of us that don't see fancy dress as an intrinsic part of cycling). The point is often made by campaign groups staging a commuter challenge where cyclists and car drivers would start from the same house and go to the same destination. These would invariably be won by the cyclist.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by Pete Owens »

SupermanVsSnowman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:00am
20mph OUCH! Thats about my typical speed on a push bike (my aero one). I will frequently hit 30 or so on the downhill bits too. I'd be going insane if I was forced to do 20 in a car.
If, as you claim, you are psychologically incapable of driving safely then you should hand your licence in.
NickJP
Posts: 797
Joined: 24 Sep 2018, 7:11pm
Location: Canberra, OZ

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by NickJP »

Mike Sales wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 11:46amI agree that licensing of drivers needs to be much more rigorous.
Many drivers seem to lack enough emotional maturity to be in charge of a tone or so of speeding metal.
There are numerous studies showing that brain maturity doesn't occur until the age of 25 or so. I suggest raising the driving age to 25 for women and 30 for men.
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by pwa »

Mike Sales wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 8:19pm
pwa wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 4:48pm
No, I haven't costed it, but in the course of my own work I do drive in urban areas and I know that a reduction in the default speed limit from 30 to 20 will have a real impact on the time it takes me to get from A to B. I have been thinking about that as I drive. Not as much as 33%, of course, because even in existing 30 areas you end up travelling slower than that a lot of the time, but I will be covering less miles in an hour. For a door to door package delivery person, or Tesco delivering your shopping, I imagine there will be a drop in the number of customers who can be reached by a vehicle and its driver in a shift, which means we will be paying a bit more for deliveries. I think it will be worth it, but we should be ready for that.
It is obvious how important drivers see it to get to their objective as quickly as they can. They are willing to take risks to get ahead. MGIF.
We cyclists so often catch up at the next lights, or the next queue of motor vehicles. I sometimes squeeze past to rub in the futility of their irrational impulse. Sometimes I just waiit, occupying my place on the road.
Without this useless hurry the roads would be less unpleasant to use.
There is something about using a vehicle which can go fast which makes drivers feel the need to save a few seconds. The real cost of relaxed driving will be tiny: the benfits will be huge. We do not have to indulge this neuorosis.
It is still going to come at a price though. My own driving style, whether at work or not, is smooth, efficient and safe, and I make a point of not intimidating any other road user. I am not the frenetic white van man you sometimes see. But I do know that travelling along urban roads in my area at the moment I can get from A to B in a shorter time than will be the case when I bring my speed down to suit a blanket 20mph. If I imagine any sort of delivery driver on the same roads, they will either ignore the speed limit or they will get to fewer customers in a day. We will want them to do the latter, which will mean each customer paying a bit more for whatever is delivered. It will also require that delivery companies adapt delivery schedules to reflect the change. That is a biggie. Drivers are given a target time to arrive at each drop, and in theory that is based on up to date route planning software. But will it be up to date with the new limits when they come in? I know a driver should not be bullied by their employer into breaking the law or driving unsafely, but at the very least an overambitious schedule would be a psychological pressure on a driver, something we would all be better off without.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

Post by thirdcrank »

A couple of points:

In the absence of any restraints, it's obvious that the faster a vehicles travels, journey times will be reduced in direct proportion.

But there are other restraints, one being other traffic. For a given speed, drivers should observe a distance between vehicles which at the very least avoids collisions if the speed of the vehicle in front is reduced. It may be counter-intuitive but the faster traffic travels then the more quickly it becomes congested and if speed is not reduced, then collisions are more likely and if they are avoided, then a slight reduction in speed in one part of the lane leads to standing traffic further back as the braking becomes more severe. Collisions are bad, both for the users of the vehicles involved and everybody else who may be delayed etc. This is the logic behind the varying speed limits on smart motorways and if that system doesn't work the IME it's because the limits have been set too high, rendering the whole system pointless.

Put another way, the only approach to optimise journey times and safety without continuously building more and bigger roads is by keeping traffic moving smoothly which means limiting speeds.

I appreciate that local roads are not motorways but that only reinforces what I'm saying. eg There's generally less scope for road widening etc and technology like variable speed limits is not feasible. On top of that, the needs of others besides the drivers of motor vehicles need to be taken into consideration. The pressures of modern employment practices etc are not to be solved by accepting that drivers should be able to ignore this.
Post Reply