Scottish Borders 20mph limit study

[Bmblbzzz]

In my view, more expensive deliveries with longer waiting time could have a (very small) positive effect on a consumerist society.

[Pebble]

Could make similar argument against cycling - cycling is invariably slower for most journeys, (I could be at my local shops in the car by the time I get my cycling clobber on) .

Except in towns that simply isn't true (At least for those of us that don't see fancy dress as an intrinsic part of cycling). The point is often made by campaign groups staging a commuter challenge where cyclists and car drivers would start from the same house and go to the same destination. These would invariably be won by the cyclist.

I take it by "Fancy Dress" you are having a pop at the lycra boys, well I am not one of those by any stretch of the imagination, but outwith the summer months I would probably get semi changed. And I would probably have to fit the rack onto my bike.

My journey to either of the supermarkets that I use are always (99.9%+) much quicker by car, and involve using a road that I consider not suitable to cycle on (yes it is in a 20 zone, but plenty cars doing closer to 40 + there is lots of pinch points that create even more conflict) It would just be a deeply unpleasant bike ride.

[pwa]

(I know there are very clogged city centres where cycling is actually faster than driving, but not round here. In Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and Porthcawl, which form the main bits of urban territory in my neck of the woods, driving gets you there quicker for most rips of over a couple of miles. My own journey to work, which is half urban, is much quicker when I drive, even without the change of clothing factored in. Only at peak traffic times does the difference become small. All of which is a bit off topic.)

And just down the road from me is one of the blanket 20mph trial zones where a previous 30 stretch of my regular route into Bridgend is now down to 20 for, at a guess, a mile and a half. And it is more time consuming to get through than it was previously. There is a part of it, maybe 300m, that was always slow anyway, due to parked cars and the narrowness, and that section is not appreciably slower now. But the rest is slower. I have to make an effort to keep my speed down, so it is the limit rather than the nature of the road that suppresses speed. A lot of the road network in my region is like this, with current 30 limits capping how fast I go when conditions allow. A blanket 20 limit in urban areas, which is roughly what the Welsh Government is toying with, will certainly add to journey times, and I will just be factoring that in to my journey planning when I am driving privately. I'll just set out earlier. But for a commercial driver with most of their working day spent in urban areas, an extra minute here and there, throughout the day, will culminate in a few less drops per day. That will mean additional drivers and vehicles to pick up the shortfall, which will be paid for by the customers. I do think this is a price worth paying, though.

As long as their employers factor in the longer journey times, commercial drivers might actually end up with a less stressful working day as they travel more slowly and to fewer customers.

[pwa]

Just as a little point of interest, I have noticed something new happening on the local trial area for the proposed 20mph default on certain roads in Wales. I have seen a motorcycle police officer standing by the B road with a hand held speed detector thingy. Nothing new in that, but apparently no tickets have been issued. It has been a bluff, as a sort of warning to people who think they are able to get away with being a bit over. Presumably the next step involves stern letters, or speeding tickets. I wonder if that is part of the pilot trial, a possible weapon in the effort to implement the new speed limit.

[Pebble]

even the council vehicles are ignoring the speed limits
https://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/n ... ts-3525496

[Nigel]

even the council vehicles are ignoring the speed limits
https://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/n ... ts-3525496

If one assumes all cases reported were over limit (note at bottom suggests there are some data errors), then its 80 cases in one month. Or, less than 3 per day. How many council vehicles are there on the road each day ? How many miles is each driven ?

Sure, one would hope for 100% compliance, but those numbers are just statistical noise. It takes time to change mindsets; I'm sure the council employs its fair share of inconsiderate drivers.


- Nigel

[Jdsk]

even the council vehicles are ignoring the speed limits
https://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/n ... ts-3525496

If one assumes all cases reported were over limit (note at bottom suggests there are some data errors), then its 80 cases in one month. Or, less than 3 per day. How many council vehicles are there on the road each day ? How many miles is each driven ?

Sure, one would hope for 100% compliance, but those numbers are just statistical noise. It takes time to change mindsets; I'm sure the council employs its fair share of inconsiderate drivers.

Same thought here. Competent reporting would mention those factors.

Jonathan

[Nigel]

Answering the numbers, a quick google search threw up a FOI request in 2018, which was answered with a list of vehicles. A very rough count was 36 per page, and 10 pages of data, so 360 vehicles. I wouldn't expect a big change in numbers since 2018.
Of those 360, fewer than 3 each day exceeded a limit.


- Nigel

[Pebble]

may be it was 42 everyday! and may be only 42 of the councils vehicles are fitted with trackers.
and out of those 42 vehicles 85% of them are exceeding 30mph in a 20.

Since the trackers are taking up to two readings per minute do you really think there was only 80 readings in excess of 20mph. Typical of FOI requests in that the answer does not tell anywhere near the full story.

[Pete Owens]

Just come back from a holiday in Peebles - and the 20mph limits did make the towns noticably calmer (or maybe it has always been civilised in that part of Scotland). Turning right, crossing the road, pulling into a main road all stress free. When driving, other vehicles didn't shoot off into the distance.

[Tinnishill]

Latest from the Polis

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-62770997

[Bmblbzzz]

Like many headlines, that promises a lot more than it says.

The police commander for the Scottish Borders has admitted regular speed checks are not being carried out across the area's 20mph speed limit zones.

There are very few places where they carry out regular – or any – speed checks.

A study also found speed limits had reduced by 3mph-4mph in the new speed limit areas.

Perhaps the BBC is paying by the word?

[Paulatic]

To be permanent from the 16th January https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-64249342

[Jdsk]

Scottish Borders Council: "Permanent 20mph speed limits to come into effect from 16 January 2023":
https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/news/art ... nuary_2023

That describes the observed speeds in the trials, but I can't make the "dashboard" work.

Jonathan

[Pete Owens]

The pattern is that the amount of speed reduction at a site is dependant on the before speed - Which is exactly what you would expect to observe.

At sites where the speeds were already low the speed limit makes very little difference.
At sites where vehicles previously travelled faster then there has been a significant speed reduction.

The good new is that it seems that Scotland will be following Wales in making 20mph the default urban limit.