Ex-Post Office CEO Paula Vennells

[Psamathe]

Interesting article about the way the Post Office is behaving towards the inquiry

Lost emails and last-ditch finds: how the Post Office inquiry was delayed
...
The company admitted that its auditors had discovered 363,000 emails on an old mailing system that had not been used since 2012. A lawyer for the Post Office said at the time that it “deeply regretted” the delay and blamed, somewhat poignantly, technical faults.
...
As well as the loss of emails, Post Office lawyers also sent more than 421 documents to the inquiry on the Friday evening, meaning they had to be read over the weekend if the evidence session was due to go ahead.
...
Less than a year later, in July 2023, evidence from Gareth Jenkins, an engineer at Fujitsu, the technology firm that built Horizon, was postponed. On the eve of the session, the Post Office said it had discovered 4,764 key documents that it had not shared in time for the evidence session.
...
etc., etc.

Ian

[Carlton green]

I have a lot of faith in our court system, but I begin to wonder how much this is justified. Is it really the case that nobody in the justice system noticed a plethora of similar cases ?
...

I agree but:
1. A plethora of cases could be due to a number of factors eg. increased checking on staff, new enforcement manager who is focusing on job, etc.

2. Is it for the court system to question increasing number of cases? My understanding (and please do correct me) is that the "courts" listen to the evidence and make a decision rather than make their own enquiries. So maybe down more to the defence lawyers? But then sounds like the PO and/or prosecution lawyers may have been withholding evidence. Authoritative independent expert of Newsnight yesterday was saying there are allegations about this that may lead to contempt of court prosecutions as well as lawyers being penalised/struck-off - but he was clear these are allegations and the inquiry will likely get to the bottom of these.

So in terms of failings of the court system I wonder if the failing is the cost of legal representation for defence (legal aid, etc.) which is maybe more a political issue than a courts issue..

Ian

From time to time we see a great deal of disparity between the funding and strengths of opposing legal teams. In the case of Sub-Postmasters versus the Post Office we see the already distressed and limitedly financially able pitted against an organisation of relatively unlimited funds. We’ve seem people browbeaten into admitting crimes that they hadn’t committed too, I’m inclined to believe that Justice has been abused.

[toontra]

I have sat in court, our charity represented by a single pro-bono barrister, facing a bench of 8 QC's and their serried ranks of clerks & juniors. I certainly know how that disparity can feel.

We won the case BTW!

[pete75]

What's happened to the political/legal/financial establishment? Time was when the establishment was competent enough to keep scandals hidden from us little people, unless they had their reasons for letting us find out.

[mjr]

What's happened to the political/legal/financial establishment? Time was when the establishment was competent enough to keep scandals hidden from us little people, unless they had their reasons for letting us find out.

Do you think there aren't reasons for us finding out now? Few are talking about the energy crisis, the climate crisis and the ongoing covid crisis now, are they? And it's knocked doctors' pay cuts and the near-total missing of all NHS outcome targets since 2016 off the top headlines, much more effectively than the self-destructive Rwanda policy did.

[pete75]

What's happened to the political/legal/financial establishment? Time was when the establishment was competent enough to keep scandals hidden from us little people, unless they had their reasons for letting us find out.

Do you think there aren't reasons for us finding out now? Few are talking about the energy crisis, the climate crisis and the ongoing covid crisis now, are they? And it's knocked doctors' pay cuts and the near-total missing of all NHS outcome targets since 2016 off the top headlines, much more effectively than the self-destructive Rwanda policy did.

The scandal was well known to the public years ago, even the public enquiry started about three years ago. It's not as if it's just been found out about now, as you seem to think.

[Cowsham]

The thing I didn't know about the post office was that they have their own judicial powers or the full power of the criminal justice system at their disposal ( I've got that right -- correct me if that's wrong ) and have done for 300 years. If that's correct it's little wonder the place was riddled with corruption.

[Jdsk]

The thing I didn't know about the post office was that they have their own judicial powers or the full power of the criminal justice system at their disposal ( I've got that right -- correct me if that's wrong ) and have done for 300 years. If that's correct it's little wonder the place was riddled with corruption.

The powers and the background:
https://www.counselmagazine.co.uk/artic ... osecutions

As I've previously posted I don't expect this to survive.

...

Most but not all of the relevant prosecutions in England were managed in this way. The previous DPP is now under attack both for the small number that were run by the CPS and for not intervening in the private prosecutions. IMO much of the attack is partisan.

Jonathan

[Cowsham]

Thanks for that link Johnathan -- yes the take away point I saw was

"The scale of this miscarriage of justice must have far reaching consequences for the future of private prosecutions."

[pete75]

The thing I didn't know about the post office was that they have their own judicial powers or the full power of the criminal justice system at their disposal ( I've got that right -- correct me if that's wrong ) and have done for 300 years. If that's correct it's little wonder the place was riddled with corruption.

They don't have their own judicial powers - only the courts have that.

[pete75]

Thanks for that link Johnathan -- yes the take away point I saw was

"The scale of this miscarriage of justice must have far reaching consequences for the future of private prosecutions."

It's certainly wasting a lot of taxpayer money. The PO can't afford to pay the compensation so it's having to be paid out of our taxes. I bear no responsibility for what's happened, so why should my money be used to compensate those affected. It'd be better for most of us if the whole thing had been covered up and those affected left to rot.

[Cowsham]

The thing I didn't know about the post office was that they have their own judicial powers or the full power of the criminal justice system at their disposal ( I've got that right -- correct me if that's wrong ) and have done for 300 years. If that's correct it's little wonder the place was riddled with corruption.

They don't have their own judicial powers - only the courts have that.

So what is the nature of the powers they have ? I believe it's a lot more than any non government owned body.

I came across this web page which maybe explains it

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ess%20plan.

I'm no expert about powers the post office has or hasn't but I gather it's a complex arrangement which perhaps the people in both organizations didn't fully understand themselves.

[Cowsham]

Thanks for that link Johnathan -- yes the take away point I saw was

"The scale of this miscarriage of justice must have far reaching consequences for the future of private prosecutions."

It's certainly wasting a lot of taxpayer money. The PO can't afford to pay the compensation so it's having to be paid out of our taxes. I bear no responsibility for what's happened, so why should my money be used to compensate those affected. It'd be better for most of us if the whole thing had been covered up and those affected left to rot.

If they are owned by government then we as voting tax payers are liable it seems. We voted them in -- they own the post office. But it may be more complex than that -- that's what both sides don't understand fully --- I think ??

[Jdsk]

The thing I didn't know about the post office was that they have their own judicial powers or the full power of the criminal justice system at their disposal ( I've got that right -- correct me if that's wrong ) and have done for 300 years. If that's correct it's little wonder the place was riddled with corruption.

They don't have their own judicial powers - only the courts have that.

So what is the nature of the powers they have ? I believe it's a lot more than any non government owned body.

I came across this web page which maybe explains it

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ess%20plan.

I'm no expert about powers the post office has or hasn't but I gather it's a complex arrangement which perhaps the people in both organizations didn't fully understand themselves.

if this is about powers of prosecution they are described in:

The thing I didn't know about the post office was that they have their own judicial powers or the full power of the criminal justice system at their disposal ( I've got that right -- correct me if that's wrong ) and have done for 300 years. If that's correct it's little wonder the place was riddled with corruption.

The powers and the background:
https://www.counselmagazine.co.uk/artic ... osecutions

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Excellent legal analysis from DAG:

"How the legal system made it so easy for the Post Office to destroy the lives of the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses – and how the legal system then made it so hard for them to obtain justice":
https://davidallengreen.com/2024/01/how ... n-justice/

Jonathan