Ex-Post Office CEO Paula Vennells

[simonineaston]

I’m currently plodding my way gloomily through Catastrophe and Systemic Change: Learning from the Grenfell Tower Fire and Other Disasters (Perspectives) by Gill Kernick, a journalist who used to live in the tower, in which we learn that under the current arrangements at least, this sort of ghastly mess and the awful treatment of ordinary people in pursuit of maximum profit, will continue unabated…

[Psamathe]

I’m currently plodding my way gloomily through Catastrophe and Systemic Change: Learning from the Grenfell Tower Fire and Other Disasters (Perspectives) by Gill Kernick, a journalist who used to live in the tower, in which we learn that under the current arrangements at least, this sort of ghastly mess and the awful treatment of ordinary people in pursuit of maximum profit, will continue unabated…

As somebody (here) posted recently "UK needs to be a society, not an economy". But all our politicians seem capable of is "economy".

Ian

[simonineaston]

I think that's right - we need to regain a sense of identity and common purpose that has somehow got lost in an ugly splurge of deregulation and free market opportunitism. That concept is hugely abstract and I don’t know how you conjure it up. I recall something along those lines, back during the 2012 Olympics but it slipped away like sand through our fingers…

[ANTONISH]

I’m currently plodding my way gloomily through Catastrophe and Systemic Change: Learning from the Grenfell Tower Fire and Other Disasters (Perspectives) by Gill Kernick, a journalist who used to live in the tower, in which we learn that under the current arrangements at least, this sort of ghastly mess and the awful treatment of ordinary people in pursuit of maximum profit, will continue unabated…

As somebody (here) posted recently "UK needs to be a society, not an economy". But all our politicians seem capable of is "economy".

Ian

A well known politician opined "there is no such thing as society" - as I remember she had a touching faith in the "free" market - and it's ability to solve all economic and societal problems.

[toontra]

The evidence from the enquiry yesterday clearly shows those at the top knew about (or at the very least were sent emails alerting them to) Horizon being faulty way back in 2004, and the ongoing prosecutions should have been stopped until a thorough investigation had taken place.

They chose instead to double down and press ahead, lying about Horizon being reliable. One seemingly insignificant line of questioning right at the end may shed light on why this all happened. Quizzed on their earnings they admitted they were on high wages (though couldn't remember the amounts) but were also paid huge bonuses.

It doesn't take a genius to reason they were far more interested in safeguarding their remuneration by protecting the viability of the company (if Horizon had to be ditched it would have led to a collapse, such was the investment involved) than they were about devastating the lives of "little people".

Miller & Mills both pled guilty to gross incompetence, which must have taken some persuasion by their advisors as they appeared to be pretty arrogant characters. But I guess that's less damaging than the actual reason - pure greed.

[Bonefishblues]

Miller & Mills both pled guilty to gross incompetence, which must have taken some persuasion by their advisors as they appeared to be pretty arrogant characters. But I guess that's less damaging than the actual reason - pure greed.

Not sure that imputation is correct. We've seen something of the the overall calibre of management in the PO over these many months.

I was struck by Mills' admission that he'd never thought to challenge, in terms 'because that's how it always was'. I think there's a great deal of this. Perhaps as a result, some more junior people were empowered, encouraged & emboldened to behave in a particularly venal way.

[Jdsk]

...
I was struck by Mills' admission that he'd never thought to challenge, in terms 'because that's how it always was'. I think there's a great deal of this. Perhaps as a result, some more junior people were empowered, encouraged & emboldened to behave in a particularly venal way.

Well said. Culture eats strategy, and often, unfortunately, appropriate individual behaviour.

Jonathan

[toontra]

Miller & Mills both pled guilty to gross incompetence, which must have taken some persuasion by their advisors as they appeared to be pretty arrogant characters. But I guess that's less damaging than the actual reason - pure greed.

Not sure that imputation is correct. We've seen something of the the overall calibre of management in the PO over these many months.

I was struck by Mills' admission that he'd never thought to challenge, in terms 'because that's how it always was'. I think there's a great deal of this. Perhaps as a result, some more junior people were empowered, encouraged & emboldened to behave in a particularly venal way.

I think you're being generous. These were the people being paid the big bucks at the top. They were fed the information that there were serious problems with Horizon in 2004 but chose to ignore it - with devastating results. One has to ask why. I suggest the simplest explanation is personal individual greed.

Neither Millar or Mills showed the slightest hint of genuine remorse for the consequences of actions (or lack thereof). Their admissions of gross negligence had to be dragged out of them through gritted teeth in the face of incontrovertible evidence. I would suggest people like this only admit to being grossly negligent in order to dodge a bigger bullet.

[Bonefishblues]

What does 'genuine remorse' look like in this context?

[toontra]

What does 'genuine remorse' look like in this context?

All I can say is - you know it when you see it. It's all manner of things - body language, tone of voice, choice of language, etc. I defy anyone who witnessed yesterday's hearing to claim either Millar or Mills showed any genuine remorse. Quite the opposite in fact - doing everything in their power to obfuscate, evade and deflect responsibility - with a large dose of convenient forgetfulness thrown in.

[Bonefishblues]

What does 'genuine remorse' look like in this context?

All I can say is - you know it when you see it. It's all manner of things - body language, tone of voice, choice of language, etc. I defy anyone who witnessed yesterday's hearing to claim either Millar or Mills showed any genuine remorse.

They were quite busy being closely questioned by successive KCs. Perhaps this was neither the time or the place? Maybe they had even been advised as such? Perhaps had they gone full Father Jack Hackett* they would have been accused of other things by observers? Perhaps like - 'It's a bit late to say sorry now' or suchlike?

I think on the whole it's best to focus on the evidence being given under oath in the context of these proceedings.

*https://youtu.be/oYOZ3IzRaf4?si=iafC2kJ7F747WRHU

[toontra]

Maybe they had even been advised as such?

I'm damned sure they had - by their legal advisors, foreseeing possible criminal proceedings. I wonder who will be funding their defence team?

I think on the whole it's best to focus on the evidence being given under oath in the context of these proceedings.

That's precisely what I've been doing! BTW telling the truth and showing remorse aren't mutually exclusive.

[Bonefishblues]

Maybe they had even been advised as such?

I'm damned sure they had - by their legal advisors, foreseeing possible criminal proceedings. I wonder who will be funding their defence team?

I think on the whole it's best to focus on the evidence being given under oath in the context of these proceedings.

That's precisely what I've been doing!

That's why expecting 'genuine remorse' is a vain hope in these proceedings then.

How has the evidence exposed that greed motivated these two individuals?

[toontra]

How has the evidence exposed that greed motivated these two individuals?

I don't believe that incompetence alone sufficiently explains what happened. Therefore -

"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

[Bonefishblues]

How has the evidence exposed that greed motivated these two individuals?

I don't believe that incompetence alone sufficiently explains what happened. Therefore -

"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

That's your deduction based on your dissatisfaction with the evidence.

ETA
For completeness, let me say I was disappointed with the line of questioning that presented the either/or of 'Either you're lying through your teeth or you are incompetent - which is it?'

I thought it was unhelpful and seemed to me to be motivated by posturing, rather than seeking to get to the truth of the matter, which I expect is rather less clear-cut than this.