Cycling UK Forum

Bonefishblues wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 12:35pm ETA
And having seen the last 30 mins of the morning session, sheer human wickedness and lack of integrity was allowed, even encouraged to prosper, because it suited the PO. in its attempt to present the indefensible as truth.

Admit it - you'd like to see Mr Stein really having a go at vd Bogerd later this afternoon - purely on a humanistic level? I certainly am. She deserves it.

The forensic stuff is the groundwork and rightly 95% of the enquiry but having the SPM's own barristers being given 5 minutes to humanise proceedings is also needed. It's cathartic if nothing else.

toontra wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 1:40pm

Bonefishblues wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 12:35pm ETA
And having seen the last 30 mins of the morning session, sheer human wickedness and lack of integrity was allowed, even encouraged to prosper, because it suited the PO. in its attempt to present the indefensible as truth.

Admit it - you'd like to see Mr Stein really having a go at vd Bogerd later this afternoon - purely on a humanistic level? I certainly am. She deserves it.

The forensic stuff is the groundwork and rightly 95% of the enquiry but having the SPM's own barristers being given 5 minutes to humanise proceedings is also needed. It's cathartic if nothing else.

100%. And then we could put her in a tumbril and parade her through the streets. Catharsis for the crowds.

100%. And then we could put her in a tumbril and parade her through the streets. Catharsis for the crowds.

Sympathies with your feelings.Nick Read needs needs to be clear about his role.The public need to remind him.Its not about PR damage limitation to former colleagues on the board.Jail and tumbrils for the Post office board lead nowhere. CBE'S added back likewise.
The PO Board spent £100 million of our money on lawyers to save themselves.The profits were falsely inflated from money stolen from Postmasters.

If the board ARE truly sorry historical Bonuses will be repaid back or written into wills for assets to be later released into the public purse.
OTHERWISE THE POST OFFICE BOARD ARE NOT SORRY AT ALL.
Actions speak louder than words.
**************************
I ride Brompton,Hetchins 531

Bonefishblues wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 1:57pm 100%. And then we could put her in a tumbril and parade her through the streets. Catharsis for the crowds.

Or the alternative - she and all the other perpetrators get off scot free using legal loopholes employed by their own lawyers - probably paid for by the tax payer.

toontra wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 2:09pm

Bonefishblues wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 1:57pm 100%. And then we could put her in a tumbril and parade her through the streets. Catharsis for the crowds.

Or the alternative - she and all the other perpetrators get off scot free using legal loopholes employed by their own lawyers - probably paid for by the tax payer.

That's as false a dichotomy as Mr Stein's from the other day.

IMO there's plenty of evidence to show perjury and conspiracy to PTCOJ here. Unless you can illustrate the loopholes that have been missed?

briansnail wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 2:09pm

100%. And then we could put her in a tumbril and parade her through the streets. Catharsis for the crowds.

Sympathies with your feelings.Nick Read needs needs to be clear about his role.The public need to remind him.Its not about PR damage limitation to former colleagues on the board.Jail and tumbrils for the Post office board lead nowhere. CBE'S added back likewise.
The PO Board spent £100 million of our money on lawyers to save themselves.The profits were falsely inflated from money stolen from Postmasters.

If the board ARE truly sorry historical Bonuses will be repaid back or written into wills for assets to be later released into the public purse.
OTHERWISE THE POST OFFICE BOARD ARE NOT SORRY AT ALL.
Actions speak louder than words.
**************************
I ride Brompton,Hetchins 531

Trouble is, they can't do that without accepting guilt and they have spent decades in denial and obfuscation and I can't see that changing now

Bonefishblues wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 3:30pm IMO there's plenty of evidence to show perjury and conspiracy to PTCOJ here. Unless you can illustrate the loopholes that have been missed?

The loopholes won't be deployed until/if such point as there are criminal prosecutions. What we are hearing now is just the groundwork being laid - i.e. blanket denial.

briansnail wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 2:09pm ...
If the board ARE truly sorry historical Bonuses will be repaid back or written into wills for assets to be later released into the public purse.
OTHERWISE THE POST OFFICE BOARD ARE NOT SORRY AT ALL.
Actions speak louder than words.
**************************
I ride Brompton,Hetchins 531

Allowing them to keep their bonuses to be gifted back in wills in effect becomes an interest free loan. And then they be swanning around telling all and sundry about their generosity ... (gifting massive sums to public purse/good causes).

They were paid massive salaries based on their abilities to do the job. Clearly they were not up to doing the job so should never have been paid all that money.

Ian

toontra wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 3:40pm

Bonefishblues wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 3:30pm IMO there's plenty of evidence to show perjury and conspiracy to PTCOJ here. Unless you can illustrate the loopholes that have been missed?

The loopholes won't be deployed until/if such point as there are criminal prosecutions. What we are hearing now is just the groundwork being laid - i.e. blanket denial.

What kind of 'loopholes' are you thinking about though - that are ready to be deployed later?

Psamathe wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 3:56pm

briansnail wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 2:09pm ...
If the board ARE truly sorry historical Bonuses will be repaid back or written into wills for assets to be later released into the public purse.
OTHERWISE THE POST OFFICE BOARD ARE NOT SORRY AT ALL.
Actions speak louder than words.
**************************
I ride Brompton,Hetchins 531

Allowing them to keep their bonuses to be gifted back in wills in effect becomes an interest free loan. And then they be swanning around telling all and sundry about their generosity ... (gifting massive sums to public purse/good causes).

They were paid massive salaries based on their abilities to do the job. Clearly they were not up to doing the job so should never have been paid all that money.

Ian

They were paid their large bonuses because they met the targets they were given. In that respect they were up to doing the job. Part of it was to stamp on rumours that the Horizon system wasn't robust.

I doubt anything will happen to them at all. Wealthy, and in many cases still powerful, individuals and this is the UK. Conscienceless people living in a country run by an establishment that pays only lip service to conscience.

The lawyer on lawyer action continues. "Bad barrister" Sam Stein had admission from Martin Smith (solicitor with Cartwright King responsible for prosecutions) that he was witness to perjury and perversion of the course of justice - i.e. knowledge that Gavin Jenkins had given false evidence as an expert witness in trials resulting in convictions but failed to disclose this to anyone, least of all the regulatory authorities or the police. Sounds pretty serious stuff for a lawyer to be accused of!

A general observation of most of the witnesses to date - amazingly selective amnesia. Lazer-like recollection when deflecting the blame onto others (e.g. exact location and time when making/receiving a phone call 11 years ago), but strangely foggy when asked about multi-page documents of meetings that they were present at and, in some cases, were actually responsible for minuting and publishing (or withholding) the transcript of when there is any hint of personal culpability. Presumably coincidental.

Chris Aujard had already resigned all of his directorships in advance of testifying and there's little doubt that others will be struck off as a result. Criminal prosecutions are also likely to follow, as I've said before. The legal profession's code of conduct and their privileged position within the legal system gives them nowhere to hide.

Bonefishblues wrote: 2 May 2024, 5:54pm Chris Aujard had already resigned all of his directorships in advance of testifying and there's little doubt that others will be struck off as a result. Criminal prosecutions are also likely to follow, as I've said before. The legal profession's code of conduct and their privileged position within the legal system gives them nowhere to hide.

I sincerely hope Rodric Williams is top of the list for criminal and regulatory proceedings. His evidence was the most damning to date and the fact he is not only still being employed by the Post Office but is actually part of the compensation scheme team is frankly scandalous and tells you everything you need to know about where PO priorities lay - and still lie.

Interesting background to Brian Altman KC's appearance at the inquiry on 8/5. In 2013 he gave the Post Office his legal opinion that its planned response to the Clarke Advice was OK, which resulted in it not being disclosed, e.g. to any convicted sub-postmaster/their lawyers.

Six years later in 2019 Altman represented the PO in the appeal hearing which resulted in the overturning of Seema Misra's conviction. Misra's barristers learned of the existence of the Clark Advice in that appeal. The Post Office/Altman tried to avoid disclosing the Clarke Advice to them on the grounds that it was legally privileged, and might have succeeded. Misra's barristers were so shocked by the contents of the Clarke Advice, that the leading barrister, Paul Marshall, passed it to the Met, who took no action other than to inform the judge; and the junior barrister, Flora Page, passed it to her brother, a freelance journalist. In court, Altman accused the two barristers of contempt of court, i.e. a criminal offence.

Flora Page is now one of the barristers representing a group of sub-postmasters at the inquiry, and is Ed Henry KC's junior. It will be interesting to see which of them puts questions to Altman.

https://www.postofficetrial.com/2021/04 ... clear.html

slowster wrote: 2 May 2024, 7:30pm Flora Page is now one of the barristers representing a group of sub-postmasters at the inquiry, and is Ed Henry KC's junior. It will be interesting to see which of them puts questions to Altman.

She'd be perfect for the job. I've been impressed with her questioning of other witnesses. Shame they can't share the questioning - good/bad barrister - Page doing the set-up and Henry going in for the kill.