Cycling UK Forum

pete75 wrote:Ah but what if you don't vote.

It depends your reason for not voting,if you opt out on principle or protest then you've opted out of the collective "we".

. There's a great deal of difference between accepting the process and finding it's results acceptable

I agree totally,I haven't found an election result acceptable since 1979 and have deliberately spoiled my paper twice, but I've had to abide by the results because I live in this country.

The very fact that someone protests against something doesn't mean they don't accept it.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Using your logic all the 750,000 folk who marched in protest at the Iraq war were part of some "we" that accepted. Ditto for the several hundred thousand on the countryside marches protesting about the hunting ban , they were really part of the "we" that accepted it.

Not really as the "we" didn't have any say in those matters,only in voting in power the political party that decided those policies .
It's quite legal to protest peacefully against whatever policies the "we" put into place,in the case of the Iraq war it wasn't in any manifesto, though the hunting ban was IIRC.

Bonefishblues wrote:Thing is, sufficient bought it as to mean that we were all on the bus.

Except, perhaps, for those who are under it

Mistik-ka wrote:

Bonefishblues wrote:Thing is, sufficient bought it as to mean that we were all on the bus.

Except, perhaps, for those who are under it

That's about it.

Vorpal wrote:

Psamathe wrote:

pete75 wrote:It'll be difficult for them to avoid an inquest which must be held where a death is "Violent or unnatural" which these certainly were. It's not compulsory to have a jury in all cases but it is where deaths occur "in circumstances which may affect public health or safety". So it looks like there will have to be inquests with juries for the Grenfell deaths.

The article said

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-kensington-london-fire-brigade-investigation-public-inquiry-inquest-theresa-may-a7794571.html wrote:But inquests do not go ahead once a public inquiry has been announced.

though I have no knowledge of the rules/practice. Maybe any Inquest is delayed until after the Inquiry is completed ?

Ian

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... e-credible says that inquests are adjourned until inquiries are concluded.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... shed-years says that the investigation report cannot be published until the inquests are concluded.

If a public inquiry is held, I think that Theresa May needs to be quite careful that it be seen as thorough and objective.

So that really has kicked getting any answers into the very very long grass. As somebody pointed out earlier, with an enquiry (that will probably be quite involved) then you have the "maxwellisation" introducing further delays (as those criticised get their own lawyers on the case, then an inquest, etc.

I can see those affected by this tragedy getting even more angered by lengthy delays that are bound to happen with the chosen way forward.

Ia

We need two inquiries. One to give us some quick answers on technical matters so that action can be taken to prevent a recurrence. And a second, thorough inquiry that also looks at decisions that contributed to this disaster.

There are some remarkable conspiracy theories floating around. Whether or not they have any foundation, a long delay can only increase their power in the local imagination. I'm not sure it will be possible to kick this one into the long grass.

reohn2 wrote:

pete75 wrote:
The very fact that someone protests against something doesn't mean they don't accept it.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Put the don't in by mistake.

Using your logic all the 750,000 folk who marched in protest at the Iraq war were part of some "we" that accepted. Ditto for the several hundred thousand on the countryside marches protesting about the hunting ban , they were really part of the "we" that accepted it.

Not really as the "we" didn't have any say in those matters,only in voting in power the political party that decided those policies .
It's quite legal to protest peacefully against whatever policies the "we" put into place,in the case of the Iraq war it wasn't in any manifesto, though the hunting ban was IIRC.[/quote]
Yep but if you protest against something you're certainly not apart of the group or "we" or whatever you want to call it who put it into place or support it.

pete75 wrote:

reohn2 wrote:

pete75 wrote:
The very fact that someone protests against something doesn't mean they don't accept it.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Put the don't in by mistake.

I suspected that and agree.

Yep but if you protest against something you're certainly not apart of the group or "we" or whatever you want to call it who put it into place or support it.

No but you're part of the "we" or whole who entered into the democratic process that put those people in power that made those desicions even if you didn't vote for them.
I organised and took part in demos against the Iraq war but by voting had to accept that the political party I didn't vote for represented me as part of the whole of the UK,because I agreed to the process by which they were elected by voting myself.
My protest was to show my disagreement with that elected government's desicion to go to war with Iraq,yet they still represented me however much I disliked their actions and made it clear by protesting against their desicion.
It's as I posted before,by entering into the voting system you accept the outcome of that process,it's the chance you take with the democratic process that things may not turn out as you liked.

But we're well off topic.....

bovlomov wrote:There are some remarkable conspiracy theories floating around. Whether or not they have any foundation, a long delay can only increase their power in the local imagination. I'm not sure it will be possible to kick this one into the long grass.

Judging by the (justifiable) furore, and what seems a well organised protest campaign I think the grass could get cut very short indeed this summer vis a vis Grenfell. The last thing the Tories need right now is prolonged protest in London, which may well spark riots. I can't see this administration lasting beyond the summer.

However much I detest modern election campaigns, in my gut I'm certain we're headed for another GE before the autumn. It's certain that May will fall on her sword. The sooner the better IMO.

IMO we are seeing the result of deregulation: developers successfully lobby for fewer restrictions and when something goes wrong, they can assert that their work was compliant. The politicians' defence is that they relied on experts, but those experts often have an interest in the result.

One thing which interests me is this: this building was so tall that its upper storeys were beyond the reach of the fire brigade's longest escapes to rescue people and its most powerful pumps to fight fire. Neither of those is a difficult technical concept. You cannot rescue people from high-rise buildings with wishful thinking.

thirdcrank wrote:IMO we are seeing the result of deregulation: developers successfully lobby for fewer restrictions and when something goes wrong, they can assert that their work was compliant. The politicians' defence is that they relied on experts, but those experts often have an interest in the result.

It's how capitalism without restraint works,run by millionaire for millionaires.

One thing which interests me is this: this building was so tall that its upper storeys were beyond the reach of the fire brigade's longest escapes to rescue people and its most powerful pumps to fight fire. Neither of those is a difficult technical concept. You cannot rescue people from high-rise buildings with wishful thinking.

I mentioned this in my first post on the thread.
First capitalists create a system where they save and make lots of money then cut services to maintain and service the abortion of system they created.
Does anyone else see how disgusting this shambles known as capitalist run UK has become?
These tower blocks were built 40 odd years ago and no one stopped to think what if?

reohn2 wrote:Does anyone else see how disgusting this shambles known as capitalist run UK has become?
These tower blocks were built 40 odd years ago and no one stopped to think what if?

+1

Too tall for ladders or hoses. Inadequate alarms and fire escape routes. No sprinklers. Oh and the outside recently improved by a covering of flammable material.

Seems the Council/TMO really didn't like people raising safety concerns

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html wrote:Two women feared dead in Grenfell Tower were 'threatened with legal action' for raising alarm about fire safety
...
Mariem Elgwahry, 27, and mother-of-three Nadia Choucair, 33, reportedly received letters ordering them to stop their campaign for improved safety.

Ian

@ Vorpal,Psamatha,It gets worse by the day ...........