Cycling UK Forum

thirdcrank wrote: this building was so tall that its upper storeys were beyond the reach of the fire brigade's longest escapes to rescue people and its most powerful pumps to fight fire.

I thought that modern tower blocks were fitted with risers for access to mains water on each floor. So rather than ladders and high powered pumps you use the stairs and fight the fire on the floor it's on internally. I'm sure if we wanted to we could design high rises with every built in feature to protect people but in reality it's been shown that the features already built in provide safety in containing of the fire. These events in lankanal and grenfell are indicative of modifications to the buildings original concrete facade...... otherwise we'd have seen several grenfall events in the 50 years of tower blocks. As long as the towers are designed for fire containment and all maintenance of in built fire equipment( fire blankets/extinguishers essential ) is done then we should see no major disasters. You may have some deaths but that is no difference to living at ground level, we still see fire deaths there too, but we are always trying to improve buildings to avoid such.

I'm not sticking up for corrupt landlords, corrupt civil servants etc but for the general design of tower blocks, the architects didn't design them to incinerate their occupants, that has come later by modifying buildings and cutting maintenance perhaps. Designers don't design to kill people, the bean counters step in to do that........ normally against designers wishes but their hands are often tied, thank god for whistle blowers. It's a human issue rather than a fault of tower blocks in general. As is so often the case, like dropping a fag onto uncleared rubbish under a football stand.

old_windbag wrote:

thirdcrank wrote: this building was so tall that its upper storeys were beyond the reach of the fire brigade's longest escapes to rescue people and its most powerful pumps to fight fire.

I thought that modern tower blocks were fitted with risers for access to mains water on each floor. So rather than ladders and high powered pumps you use the stairs and fight the fire on the floor it's on internally. I'm sure if we wanted to we could design high rises with every built in feature to protect people but in reality it's been shown that the features already built in provide safety in containing of the fire. These events in lankanal and grenfell are indicative of modifications to the buildings original concrete facade...... otherwise we'd have seen several grenfall events in the 50 years of tower blocks. As long as the towers are designed for fire containment and all maintenance of in built fire equipment( fire blankets/extinguishers essential ) is done then we should see no major disasters. You may have some deaths but that is no difference to living at ground level, we still see fire deaths there too, but we are always trying to improve buildings to avoid such. [/quote ]
I'm unaware of the mechanics and methods of fighting fires in multistorey blocks,however I am aware of the need to keep those doing the firefighting to be relatively safe whilst doing what already is a very dangerous job.

I'm not sticking up for corrupt landlords, corrupt civil servants etc but for the general design of tower blocks, the architects didn't design them to incinerate their occupants, that has come later by modifying buildings and cutting maintenance perhaps. Designers don't design to kill people, the bean counters step in to do that........ normally against designers wishes but their hands are often tied, thank god for whistle blowers. It's a human issue rather than a fault of tower blocks in general. As is so often the case, like dropping a fag onto uncleared rubbish under a football stand.

It's my understanding that we have a situation where for the saving of £5000 on retro fitted cladding (on a £10 million refurb of the tower block) could've been fireproof,and that the type of cladding used is banned and has been for a number of years in other countries,because of its inherent dangers with regard to fire,both to residents and fire fighters.
We have a situation where fire alarms were either non existent or faulty,and no sprinkler systems if only on the staircase which would be the main source of emergency egress both for residents escape and fire fighters protection whilst fighting the fires,and totally inadequate external firefighting equipment.
The then mayor of London,one Boris Johnson(now foreign secretary) telling another politician to "get stuffed" in a public meeting when he voiced his concern regarding the slashing of 500 fire fighters and closure of 10 fire stations in London.
And the minister in charge of safety,one Eric Pickles sat on a safety report for years
that condemned such building practices fou d used in this tower block.

To cap it all we have documented evidence of residents groups complaining over a number of years about their fears of fire in their homes and their lives being under threat due to the TMO and the local council's complete lack of concern for their safety.
Worse than that they were threatened with legal action for complaining!

Now these people's charred remains lie in the tower block they complained so bitterly about,whilst the council and the TMO staff responsible for their safety are nowhere to be found,and the politicians run around like headless chickens wondering who they can shift the blame onto,whilst the Prime Minister can't doesn't have the courtesy of meeting with the survivors to give them any comfort or support that the perpetrators of their loved ones deaths will be brought to book.

What we have is a national scandals of the highest magnitude that goes to the very top of government in the UK today,these aren't mistakes but deliberate actions to penny pinch and risk many,many people's lives,not a just in this tower block but many others throughout the country due to a complete disregard for the people this government and previous ones have responsibility for due to a slackening of legislation and total lack of inspections of work carried out,people may also remember the recent PFI scandals on the shoddy workmanship carried out on public buildings including walls falling down on schools where it's been sheer luck that no children were killed.
Where does this shambles end?

well the GUARDIAN all week has been incinerating the establishment -

Revealed: the tower block fire warnings that ministers ignored Revealed: the tower block fire warnings that ministers ignored

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tower-block-fire-warnings-grenfell-victims?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=231157&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2



Why does it take a tragedy like Grenfell Tower for ministers to put lives above saving money?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tragedy-grenfell-tower-lives-money-fire-safety?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=231157&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2




Among the victims, my kind, funny friend Khadija Saye, and her mum

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/khadija-saye-grenfell-tower-artist-venice-biennale?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=231157&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


Grenfell Tower’s residents were failed long before fire broke out

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/18/grenfell-tower-residents-were-failed-long-before-fire-broke-out?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=231157&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


The Grenfell tragedy exposes a tawdry culture that has held sway for too long

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/17/grenfell-tower-tragedy-exposes-tawdry-culture?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=231157&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


For years, I’ve seen Kensington’s poor treated with disdain

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/17/for-years-ive-seen-kensington-poor-treated-with-disdain?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=231157&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


George Orwell’s idea of a better England is stirring again today

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/17/george-orwell-idea-of-better-britain-stirring-again?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=231157&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

"Even in these shameful times, it is important for an outsider – which as an Irishman I certainly am – to say: yes you are. England is better than the shrinking of its public realm of mutual care that has led to Grenfell Tower. It is better than the reckless game-playing of a buffoonish ruling class that has led to the self-harming gesture politics of Brexit. It is better than the show it is making of itself on the world stage, the tragicomic spectacle of a nation in which no one has the authority to negotiate its future."

I dont have much time for newspapers, maybe this one to support?

If you read nothing else on this tragedy, read this:-
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... WEML6619I2

And please watch the PM's interview on Newsnight ,make up your own mind.....

The responses i'm seeing all point to the inadequacies of our beaurocrats. Not the tower blocks. Cost cutting here and there, fiddling extra back pocket money at all levels with disregard to the function and safety requirements of a tower block. The fire safety concerns of such buildings would have been reviewed by fire brigades with much less capable equipment when first proposed. They must have approved and as technology has progressed we've added smoke alarms, extinguishers, blankets, emergency lights etc. All low cost additions that improve safety year by year. If these have been abandoned by the councils and beaurocrats concerned then the blame for this event, hopefully the one and only, lies firmly at their doorstep. But isn't that so often the case, as i say designers don't intend to kill people but if people ignore their intelligent advice or ignore the reccomended operating conditions etc then it is those ignoring who are to blame. You can only protect up to a point, that point it seems being the nonchalant attitude of civil servants and brushing things under the carpet.

Tower blocks are not inherently dangerous unless you choose to make them so by ignoring the advice of those who know their work and why things are reccomended to be implemented the way they are.

reohn2 wrote:If you read nothing else on this tragedy, read this:-
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... WEML6619I2

And please watch the PM's interview on Newsnight ,make up your own mind.....

That article contains a remark that set me thinking a lot:

King, who was a chief fire officer for 20 years, said: “They seem to need a disaster to change regulations, rather than evidence and experience. It was the same with the King’s Cross fire and the Bradford City football club fire. They always seem to need a significant loss of life before things are changed.”

Note, this is a professional firefighter speaking - not some spin doctor, opportunist or journalist.

A lot of truth in that. Certainly the Kings Cross fire, which killed 31 in November 1987, brought about many changes in regulations: hopefully an incident like that one, in which rubbish accumulated under an escalator had been smouldering for some hours before it erupted in a fireball. Properly functioning smoke detection would have picked it up in time to avert a tragedy. This deficiency has indeed been largely rectified, in locations such as that.

In the case of the Bradford City disaster, in which the inferno erupted in a matter of seconds after a cigarette was dropped onto accumulated paper under the wooden stand, smoke detection would have availed little. Instead better design of the stands with less inflammable material, and proper clearing out of rubbish (a 17-year-old newspaper was discovered amongst the surviving trash) - was what was needed. Again, football has undergone a sea-change since that event - but of course Hillsborough also had a lot to do with it.

So perhaps things will change after Grenfell.

I might add, if I may, that my own ongoing career was largely shaped by Kings Cross. Up till then I'd been working in telemetry, but the upsurge in demand for fire detection and protection, following that tragedy, meant that I was switched to working on fire alarms. Which I continued doing right up to my retirement.

I'd like to add another comment about smoke detection. Although the technology has advanced considerably in the time I've been working in the field, it's still true that the world's best smoke detector looks like this:

The problem is, the owner of that appendage may not be present at the seat of the fire, or may be asleep, or may not be in a position to alert others, or to raise the alarm. That's why we also need automatic detection. There would have been no occasion for anyone to have been underneath the escalators at Kings Cross. If there had been, lives would have been saved. If there had been a smoke detector, ditto.

pwa wrote:We need two inquiries. One to give us some quick answers on technical matters so that action can be taken to prevent a recurrence. And a second, thorough inquiry that also looks at decisions that contributed to this disaster.

Absolutely.
And after the first report (for my money, right now before even waiting so long), excluding the use of any suspect materials ought to be the law until they are proven safe, not left to be used until another seven years later we find yet again (shock horror) that flammable materials catch fire, when they have been used in more and more buildings over yet another seven years.

old_windbag wrote:The responses i'm seeing all point to the inadequacies of our beaurocrats. Not the tower blocks. Cost cutting here and there, fiddling extra back pocket money at all levels with disregard to the function and safety requirements of a tower block. The fire safety concerns of such buildings would have been reviewed by fire brigades with much less capable equipment when first proposed. They must have approved and as technology has progressed we've added smoke alarms, extinguishers, blankets, emergency lights etc. All low cost additions that improve safety year by year. If these have been abandoned by the councils and beaurocrats concerned then the blame for this event, hopefully the one and only, lies firmly at their doorstep. But isn't that so often the case, as i say designers don't intend to kill people but if people ignore their intelligent advice or ignore the reccomended operating conditions etc then it is those ignoring who are to blame. You can only protect up to a point, that point it seems being the nonchalant attitude of civil servants and brushing things under the carpet.

Tower blocks are not inherently dangerous unless you choose to make them so by ignoring the advice of those who know their work and why things are reccomended to be implemented the way they are.

You really are a tower block fanboy aren't you?

Theresa May's statement says "It has been decided today that the public inquiry will report back to me personally. As prime minister I will be responsible for implementing it's findings". That suggests the inquiry will have to start very soon and produce it's findings quickly if she is to implement them as prime minister.

pete75 wrote:You really are a tower block fanboy aren't you?

If the alternative to the tower block is the favela, perhaps we all are.

If we can arrive at something in between, great!

old_windbag wrote:

thirdcrank wrote: this building was so tall that its upper storeys were beyond the reach of the fire brigade's longest escapes to rescue people and its most powerful pumps to fight fire.

I thought that modern tower blocks were fitted with risers for access to mains water on each floor. So rather than ladders and high powered pumps you use the stairs and fight the fire on the floor it's on internally. I'm sure if we wanted to we could design high rises with every built in feature to protect people but in reality it's been shown that the features already built in provide safety in containing of the fire. These events in lankanal and grenfell are indicative of modifications to the buildings original concrete facade...... otherwise we'd have seen several grenfall events in the 50 years of tower blocks. As long as the towers are designed for fire containment and all maintenance of in built fire equipment( fire blankets/extinguishers essential ) is done then we should see no major disasters. You may have some deaths but that is no difference to living at ground level, we still see fire deaths there too, but we are always trying to improve buildings to avoid such.

We have seen several events in the last 50 years, but none have been as serious as Grenfell.
-Ronan Point, 1968; a gas explosion caused a partial collapse of the tower block killing 4 and injuring 17
-Harrow Court, 2005; a fire thought to be started by a candle killed 3, including two firefighters, and caused 70 to be evacuated
-Lakanal House, 2009; a faulty television started a fire, killing 6 and injuring at least 20
-Shirley Towers, 2010; a 15-storey block in Southampton during which firefighters Alan Bannon and James Shears died and another was injured
-Sapphire Tower 2013; one man was treated in a specialist burns unit and 8 fire crews attended
-Shepherd's Bush tower block, 2016; 50 people are made homeless after a tumble dryer fire http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-37132082

Firefighters are often* called to tower blocks, but the fires seldom become serious. After Shirley Towers, the coroner (again) recommended that sprinkler systems be fitted in all tower blocks over 30 metres high http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/which-co ... 43.article

The Shepherd's Bush Fire was another in which external panels were thought to have spread the fire. http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/a-stark- ... 79.article

I don't have any idea how proportions of injuries and deaths from fire in tower blocks compare to other types of dwelling. I would expect them to be safer, despite the incidents that have occurred. I would also expect that social housing in some areas has a poor safety record, independent of the type of housing.

*There are some FOI requests for information about tower block fires, but none is comprehensive. Here's one from West Midlands.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... dotheyknow

661-Pete wrote:

pete75 wrote:You really are a tower block fanboy aren't you?

If the alternative to the tower block is the favela, perhaps we all are.

If we can arrive at something in between, great!

It's not though. It's streets of terraced houses similar to the ones they replaced.

pete75 wrote:You really are a tower block fanboy aren't you?

Well when something can be made to offer people high quality living standards, warmth, privacy and safety..... yes safety. These buildings weren't designed to be dangerous, how those in charge allow them to become so is a political/beaurocratic issue. A car can kill you but when used correctly according to it'''s designed purpose it is very benign. So it's ok to criticise my viewpoint of tower blocks but if we didn't have a population crisis we wouldn't need to be building high rise properties. The latter is functional and safe, the latest incidents stem from much deeper issues at a beaurocratic/financial level.

Vorpal wrote:We have seen several events in the last 50 years, but none have been as serious as Grenfell.
-Ronan Point, 1968; a gas explosion caused a partial collapse of the tower block killing 4 and injuring 17
-Harrow Court, 2005; a fire thought to be started by a candle killed 3, including two firefighters, and caused 70 to be evacuated
-Lakanal House, 2009; a faulty television started a fire, killing 6 and injuring at least 20
-Shirley Towers, 2010; a 15-storey block in Southampton during which firefighters Alan Bannon and James Shears died and another was injured
-Sapphire Tower 2013; one man was treated in a specialist burns unit and 8 fire crews attended
-Shepherd's Bush tower block, 2016; 50 people are made homeless after a tumble dryer fire

Ronan point was caused by structural issues by the contractor doing the build the gas explosion was able to lift the ceiliing/floor from resting on its walls and it caused a collapse. So that was a major failure but it hasn't happened since and it brought change, it was early days. The others mentioned outside of lankanal( which is interconnected to some degree with this event ) are not major catastrophes. How many house fire deaths have we had over the same time and they are a degree or two easier to escape from. Beyond the fires themselves one has to question why any electrical appliance should go on fire, they aren't designed to and we are meant to have breakers in place and rcd's. If a tumble dryer sets fire due to a manufacturing defect( one manufacturer did ) then if an occupant is present they should have an extinguisher provided if not present then the flat should contain any fire. A fire detection system should then detect and trigger an alarm to correct authorities....... but perhaps this is where there is no provision in place for a few tens of pounds but should be. It's frustrating to argue the case in defence of the tower block as a place to live when all I'm fighting is human incompotence to take notice of professional advice and to understand how to maintain a safe building. It's no different to health and safety in factories, we've come a long way in reducing workplace accidents by applying sinple rules and regulations and educating the workforece to avoid the accidents that were commonplace in the past.

I thought the issue at Ronan Point was that nobody had considered what would happen if there were to be a gas explosion. The connection here is that nobody seems to have considered what would happen if there was to be a major fire.

(We had an ill-fated municipal housing scheme here in Leeds, built on the same system as Ronan Point, but not high-rise. It was planned to be heated with the then cheap and plentiful North Sea Gas, but the Ronan Point explosion forced a change of plan and electricity was used instead. Hunslet Grange AKA Leek Street Flats, was a monument to shoddiness and was demolished before the first block could be converted to electricity. A chap called Poulson was one of Leeds City Council's "experts" in those days.)

thirdcrank wrote:I thought the issue at Ronan Point was that nobody had considered what would happen if there were to be a gas explosion. The connection here is that nobody seems to have considered what would happen if there was to be a major fire.

(We had an ill-fated municipal housing scheme here in Leeds, built on the same system as Ronan Point, but not high-rise. It was planned to be heated with the then cheap and plentiful North Sea Gas, but the Ronan Point explosion forced a change of plan and electricity was used instead. Hunslet Grange AKA Leek Street Flats, was a monument to shoddiness and was demolished before the first block could be converted to electricity. A chap called Poulson was one of Leeds City Council's "experts" in those days.)

Yep and people started using paraffin heaters because they couldn't afford the electric heating. The flats couldn't handle the condensation so that made living conditions even worse.
Quarry hill flats in Leeds were good when they were built and could have remained so with correct maintenance. I think they were demolished to make way for a giant dole office aka the Kremlin.