Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

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661-Pete
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by 661-Pete »

Flinders wrote:The train was being propelled from the rear? That's weird.
No. So-called 'Push-pull' trains with a locomotive permanently attached to one end of the rolling stock, were quite commonplace in the 1980s. The loco switched between pulling the train and pushing the train, as the train changed directions upon reaching a terminus. There was a 'slave' driver's cab at the non-driven end of the train, but when the driver was in this cab they controlled power at the opposite end.

I have a grim reason to recall such trains. A friend of mine, and 12 others, were killed in 1984 when a train of this type derailed after hitting a cow on the Edinburgh-Glasgow line.

Here is another example of such a train, working the Gatwick Express. These trains have long since been superseded on that route.
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JohnW
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by JohnW »

Flinders wrote:...................The train was being propelled from the rear? That's weird. What's your source for that, just out of interest? (not doubting you, just wanting to know more about it) Except for electric trains with traction motors down the length of the train, which is a completely different matter, I didn't think that was ever done except for banking. Even in Ye Olde Days, when there was one engine at one end and they couldn't always be turned, they didn't go facing forwards and push from the back- they went to the front and pulled going backwards (if you see what I mean)...................


Yes, it's a fact Flinders - the standard trains on the East Coast main line (Virgin East Coast now) are of that configuration - there's one loco (class 91) at the north end of the train which provides all the traction power - it pulls northbound and pushes southbound. It's been done before in Britain.

Some of the trains are of the earlier HST type, with a diesel loco at each end - I think that includes those trains which run through to Aberdeen because the wires don't go north of Edinburgh.
Canuk
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Canuk »

I think Bovlomov hit the proverbial on the head. We assume that fraud, self interest, connivance and plain greed will not be part of a risk assessment, but factor it out as we imagine these practices to be excluded from Health and Safety measures and research.

But it's clear that at least some of these were at play in the building supervision. Risk assessments should factor them into the final analysis. Perhaps in the form of a question 'how likely is it that the landlord of this property would cut costs and deprive residents of basic safety equipment and means of escape'. Risk assessment for air travel now includes the provision for potential suicide and it's early detection in pilots.

Human interest and human failings should absolutely be factored into any modern risk assessment, especially when there's an opportunity to avoid or compromise basic safety. There's no point jailing people after the fact, after the needless death of innocents. The government are already trying to minimise this disaster.

We shouldn't let them.
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Paulatic
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Paulatic »

In the early hours of the disaster I saw tweets stating tenders and emergency vehicles couldn't get to the scene because of parked up streets. I saw pictures of, supposedly, press cars blocking the way.
I've heard no further reference, and assumed it insignificant, to this until last night when I read it again.
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Vorpal »

Paulatic wrote:In the early hours of the disaster I saw tweets stating tenders and emergency vehicles couldn't get to the scene because of parked up streets. I saw pictures of, supposedly, press cars blocking the way.
I've heard no further reference, and assumed it insignificant, to this until last night when I read it again.

Unsafe parking practices, and lack of access for emergency vehicles was one of the things that residents complained about, going back several years.
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pwa
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by pwa »

It looks as though the cladding is going to be the big issue. The fire brigade arrived to put out a fridge fire in a single flat and did just that. The team thought they had done the job and were packing away when they were informed that flames had been seen going up the outside of the building. That, surely, is something that would not have been possible without the new cladding.
pete75
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by pete75 »

Paulatic wrote:In the early hours of the disaster I saw tweets stating tenders and emergency vehicles couldn't get to the scene because of parked up streets. I saw pictures of, supposedly, press cars blocking the way.
I've heard no further reference, and assumed it insignificant, to this until last night when I read it again.


Presumably the press got there after the fire brigade arrived.
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pwa
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote:
Paulatic wrote:In the early hours of the disaster I saw tweets stating tenders and emergency vehicles couldn't get to the scene because of parked up streets. I saw pictures of, supposedly, press cars blocking the way.
I've heard no further reference, and assumed it insignificant, to this until last night when I read it again.


Presumably the press got there after the fire brigade arrived.


The initial fire was just a regular single flat fire caused by a faulty fridge. The fire brigade put that fire out and were packing away when they were told that flames had been seen on the outside of the building. Would the press have turned out in a big way for the initial single flat fire?
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Vorpal »

Canuk wrote:I think Bovlomov hit the proverbial on the head. We assume that fraud, self interest, connivance and plain greed will not be part of a risk assessment, but factor it out as we imagine these practices to be excluded from Health and Safety measures and research.

But it's clear that at least some of these were at play in the building supervision. Risk assessments should factor them into the final analysis. Perhaps in the form of a question 'how likely is it that the landlord of this property would cut costs and deprive residents of basic safety equipment and means of escape'. Risk assessment for air travel now includes the provision for potential suicide and it's early detection in pilots.

Human interest and human failings should absolutely be factored into any modern risk assessment, especially when there's an opportunity to avoid or compromise basic safety. There's no point jailing people after the fact, after the needless death of innocents. The government are already trying to minimise this disaster.

We shouldn't let them.

Risk Assessments shouldn't have to account for that kind of stupidity, if good legislation, and the staff to enforce it are in place to mitigate it.

In this case, the following would likely have prevented the fire from becoming out of control and/or allowed most residents to escape
-explicit ban on external cladding that isn't fire proof
-sprinkler systems required in the tower block
-adequate fire alarm system
-testing of emergency systems and fire fighting equipment in the tower block
-fire extinguishers in all apartments
-emergency lighting in stair wells and halls (also tested)
-more than one means of escape (e.g. deployable escape slides on every, or every second floor)
-fire drills and training the the use of extinguishers
-frequent inspection of the above (including checking that drills & tests are done regularly with authority to repair & bill the landlord(s)

Also, residents concerns must be listened to & acted upon, as should any concerns expressed by the fire brigade or inspectors. It might be a good idea to have a third party, that can be seen as independent, involved in assessing both fire safety, and residents concerns, or available to mediate in cases where residents are not satisfied with the outcome.

That's not to say that risk assessments should not consider the possibility; some do. But too much focus on this sort of thing may take focus off the main aspects of safety
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Ben@Forest »

Vorpal wrote:In this case, the following would likely have prevented the fire from becoming out of control and/or allowed most residents to escape
-explicit ban on external cladding that isn't fire proof
-sprinkler systems required in the tower block
-adequate fire alarm system
-testing of emergency systems and fire fighting equipment in the tower block
-fire extinguishers in all apartments
-emergency lighting in stair wells and halls (also tested)
-more than one means of escape (e.g. deployable escape slides on every, or every second floor)
-fire drills and training the the use of extinguishers
-frequent inspection of the above (including checking that drills & tests are done regularly with authority to repair & bill the landlord(s)


My wife works in a three storey building. There is only one stairwell, there is no fire escape and the windows are secured to only open a few inches for safety reasons. When she attended a fire training session she queried this and was basically told (by a fire safety professional not just her employer) that the stairwell was a fire-safe feature and there was no need for any other egress. She was also told that no combustible material (post, deliveries etc should be left in the lobby or within the stairwell) but of course they are.

Not having a fire escape in a three storey building has always seemed odd to me.
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bovlomov
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by bovlomov »

Vorpal wrote:Risk Assessments shouldn't have to account for that kind of stupidity, if good legislation, and the staff to enforce it are in place to mitigate it.

Perhaps, but the last item on your list amounts to the same thing, if it done independently.

-frequent inspection of the above (including checking that drills & tests are done regularly with authority to repair & bill the landlord(s)

Allowing interested parties to sign off a job is an invitation to the corrupt and the corner-cutting. Unless a truly independent survey is conducted, inadequate cable will be used; intumescent caps will be omitted from downlighters, fire blocks will be breached,

My point is, if the consequences of a failure are so great (as in a tower block fire), then it might be unwise to depend on honesty and competence. The same type of consideration might be made when assessing development of a nuclear power station, but not for a terraced house or a footbridge. We know that, on any given project, some people will be useless or corrupt. And in any tower block where there are humans, it is certain that DIY modifications will be made and safety procedures will be subverted. Those things occur despite legislation, and at some point they should make the project unviable.

Local to you: a Norwegian friend has just informed me of similar practices over there. I'm disappointed!
Ben@Forest
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Ben@Forest »

bovlomov wrote:And in any tower block where there are humans, it is certain that DIY modifications will be made and safety procedures will be subverted. Those things occur despite legislation, and at some point they should make the project unviable.


Some years ago I saw a programme about a village/town in some earthquake-prone area of Pakistan. After it suffered a quake the reconstruction built everything to an earthquake proof standard. Then householders built their own additions, extensions (and probably new dwellings) to their own standards which meant that when another earthquake happened there was still a significant loss of life.
Psamathe
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Psamathe »

Vorpal wrote:.....
In this case, the following would likely have prevented the fire from becoming out of control and/or allowed most residents to escape
-explicit ban on external cladding that isn't fire proof
.....

There was a bit on TV the other day after Hammond announced that the cladding used on the block was actually not allowed in the UK. So the TV people investigated and it seems that the cladding used is permitted provided the design includes specific blocks (into bits I didn't understand). So I guess (based on that report) the investigations will get very very technical in terms of what design features were included, what tests were done, who checked, etc.

Ian
Ben@Forest
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Ben@Forest »

Psamathe wrote:There was a bit on TV the other day after Hammond announced that the cladding used on the block was actually not allowed in the UK. So the TV people investigated and it seems that the cladding used is permitted provided the design includes specific blocks (into bits I didn't understand). So I guess (based on that report) the investigations will get very very technical in terms of what design features were included, what tests were done, who checked, etc


No expert (of course) and the papers could be wrong (of course) but I read that the cladding is allowed but not on buildings over 18 metres.
JohnW
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by JohnW »

Vorpal wrote:...............Unsafe parking practices, and lack of access for emergency vehicles was one of the things that residents complained about, going back several years.


Yes - motorists again.
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