Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

[Vorpal]

George Monbiot has done this opinion piece about the inquiry. While it's clearly an *opinion* piece and must therefore be treated with some caution (and it's George Monbiot, so you know he will have nothing good to say about the government ), but he does make some good points.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y-exchange

[mercalia]

"Grenfell Tower: Corporate manslaughter considered by police
Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire say they have "reasonable grounds" to suspect that corporate manslaughter offences may have been committed.

The council and tenant management organisation which ran the London tower block have both been told there are grounds to suspect they may have committed the offence."

but

"In the case of corporate manslaughter, this is an offence which can only be committed by a corporation - not an individual, therefore no-one can be arrested in this instance. "

so whats the point some one explain? nice get out of jail card for the people at the top who neglected the poor in this rich borough for so long?
wont satisfy those affected?

put "the corporation" in gaol?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40747241

[Psamathe]

"Grenfell Tower: Corporate manslaughter considered by police
Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire say they have "reasonable grounds" to suspect that corporate manslaughter offences may have been committed.

The council and tenant management organisation which ran the London tower block have both been told there are grounds to suspect they may have committed the offence."

but

"In the case of corporate manslaughter, this is an offence which can only be committed by a corporation - not an individual, therefore no-one can be arrested in this instance. "

so whats the point some one explain? nice get out of jail card for the people at the top who neglected the poor in this rich borough for so long?
wont satisfy those affected?

put "the corporation" in gaol? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cry:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40747241

Similarly, unlimited fines would end-up being paid by who? (or reducing the services provided to e.g. those that suffered).

But I believe this is a progress update rather than a final word. I guess the Police will now be interviewing individuals from the organisations (or working for the organisations at the relevant time), they will establish more facts and if evidence emerges suggesting wrongdoing by individuals, then it becomes possible prosecution of individuals might then be considered.

But another interesting report was that tests on the tower insulation, as installed according to the design have completely failed and in the words of the report "it should never have been used". So some individual wrote the report approving the materials & design, somebody did the desk study claiming the materials/design were ok, and I wonder if further prosecutions will follow against those (companies and/or individuals) responsible for that aspect of the tragedy.

Ian

[blackbike]

Police think the council and the 'arms length' council management company could be in the frame for corporate manslaughter.

That guarantees a whitewash.

Stand by for the council getting fined a few quid which the taxpayers will have to pay anyway, not councillors or council staff with responsibility for safety in the borough's social housing.

And the usual public sector platitudes - systemic failure, no individuals to blame, lessons have been learned, time to move on.

No individuals will be brought to account for this,

No careers will be threatened. No promotions will be delayed.

The state does not do accountability.

[Vorpal]

Another hint at whitewash...

http://www.independent.co.uk/property/h ... 12646.html

Sir Ken Knight:
-signed off the certificate for the Reynobond cladding https://www.warringtoncertification.com ... oducts.pdf
-was the chair of a panel that advised against retrofitting sprinkler systems in tower blakcs
-now chairs the 'independent' fire safety panel that will advise the government on its response to the Grenfell fire

http://www.independent.co.uk/property/h ... 12646.html

[reohn2]

Sounds about right

[mercalia]

I see a similar fire else where - in Dubai - pictures look similar?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/03/flames-engulf-86-storey-residential-tower-in-dubai?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=237887&subid=23601318&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[Flinders]

The Building Research place at Watford have a very large proportion of the responsibility for this disaster, they make the regulations and are now saying materials they allowed are unsafe. Watch this space..

Al

Actually, they create the standards. They cannot enforce their use. If the government had required testing to the latest standard, instead of using outdated standards, the materials would not have been allowed.

I gather that Pickles got rid of some old regs a good few years ago, regs which prevented some of the things being used that appear to have been part of the problem. He also catcalled the Welsh Assembly for insisting on sprinklers in at least some new installations. Not looking so clever now, is he? He also seems to have been very quiet about all this recently.

[Flinders]

I see a similar fire else where - in Dubai - pictures look similar?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/03/flames-engulf-86-storey-residential-tower-in-dubai?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=237887&subid=23601318&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

One reason those panels ought not to have been used on Grenfell is that the risks were already well known from previous fires in Dubai and elsewhere. A government on the ball that listened to its own experts (who have been on about this since the fire in Camberwell) would have stopped these materials being used in any more buildings some time ago, at the very least, and would have ordered tests on existing installations.

Nobody has been killed in those fires in Dubai AFAIK, but I understand they have sprinklers, and presumably better compartmentalisation etc.

[Psamathe]

Grenfell Tower: Government dismisses conflict of interest concerns over chair of independent buildings review
...
Dame Judith Hackitt was formerly a director of the Energy Saving Trust - a body which promotes insulation products containing the material blamed for fuelling the devastating high-rise blaze that killed at least 80.
...
It is reported that Dame Judith resigned from her role at the trust 24 hours before communities secretary Sajid Javid appointed her to chair the independent buildings review.

No wonder so many think the various inquiries are a complete stitch-up.

Ian

[reohn2]

Grenfell Tower: Government dismisses conflict of interest concerns over chair of independent buildings review
...
Dame Judith Hackitt was formerly a director of the Energy Saving Trust - a body which promotes insulation products containing the material blamed for fuelling the devastating high-rise blaze that killed at least 80.
...
It is reported that Dame Judith resigned from her role at the trust 24 hours before communities secretary Sajid Javid appointed her to chair the independent buildings review.

No wonder so many think the various inquiries are a complete stitch-up.

Ian

And non more than the residents themselves.
BTW,where are the people who earlier on this thread were needing proof of stitch ups,government involvement,penny pinching and gambling with people's lives.
In the comments one stated "what did you expect,these are Tories,this is what they do" he isn't wrong.......

[Psamathe]

I noted that in the immediate aftermath of the disaster the Government were quick to promise to pay for required e.g. sprinkler systems in other blocks throughout the country. And whilst the tragedy was on every news broadcast they maintained the offer. But now thinks have quietened down and news reports are rarer and as other local authorities are faced with bills for installation of sprinkler systems, seems

Theresa May says no Government cash for sprinklers in tower blocks despite promises made after Grenfell

Is it any wonder nobody trusts this Government.

Ian

[Vorpal]

Effect of sprinklers on fire safety in Scotland's tower blocks
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-41258411

[Vorpal]

38Degrees are running a petition https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campa ... 2017-10-14

[Psamathe]

38Degrees are running a petition https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campa ... 2017-10-14

I wont sign petitions on 38 Degrees any longer - they seem to think that signing a petition you support means you also want to receive e-mail SPAM from them on an ongoing basis! Shame as there are sometimes petitions they run I agree with but I've learnt my lesson from them (on more than one occasion).

So they are now blocked from my computer (can't even browse to their web site!

Ian