Walking the wrong way

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Cowsham
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Cowsham »

Red Kite wrote: 13 May 2021, 11:28am In practice many if not most drivers will go round blind left handers at well beyond the speed in which they could stop in the distance they can see, and the behaviour is reinforced by the reality that they will almost always get away with it.

Of course the driver is responsible but that won't help the ped if he's brown bread. I won't quote the usual 'right of way' rhyme, but there's a good chance that the driver will think it's his right to be on the road and the walker's fault for being there.

I frequently walk local roads like that. If there's no verge, I cross the road. It's akin to driving or riding defensively.
Exactly my sentiments and the HC advises this. I thought it was just plain common sense.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by thirdcrank »

Cowsham wrote: 12 May 2021, 10:53pm
It may be safer to cross the road well before a sharp right-hand bend so that oncoming traffic has a better chance of seeing you. Cross back after the bend.
Perhaps your wish to somehow prove your point - eg emphasising with bold and underlining - led to your overlooking the absence of legislation beneath these paragraphs (apart from the motorway regs.) ie This is only advice. It's also only a small part of the whole publication which some may prefer to ignore.

This contrasts with the principle advice to drivers which is mandatory:-
Rule 144

You MUST NOT
  • drive dangerously

    drive without due care and attention

    drive without reasonable consideration for other road users.
Law RTA 1988 sects 2 & 3 as amended by RTA 1991
NB Nowhere in the HC is the possibility of colossal traffic jams given as a reason for ignoring the law.

I do accept that the received wisdom in some quarters is that nothing should slow the flow of motor traffic but that doesn't make it right. Beyond that, the bit you hang so much on says "It may be safer..." which I presume means that in in some circumstances, repeatedly crossing a twisting road may not be safe, not least because some selfish drivers won't appreciate why it's happening.

Especially on a forum for vulnerable road users, I think these attitudes must be repudiated.
mattheus
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by mattheus »

Cowsham wrote: 13 May 2021, 1:30pm
Exactly my sentiments and the HC advises this. I thought it was just plain common sense.
Well I'm all in favour of common sense. Can you please confirm that you have the common sense to obey this:

Highway Code para.126.
Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear.

This isn't just common sense - it's something you were trained to do by a certified instructor, and then examined on! (One assumes ... )
Mike Sales
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Mike Sales »

Cowsham wrote: 13 May 2021, 1:27pm
Mike Sales wrote: 13 May 2021, 11:10am
mattheus wrote: 13 May 2021, 11:01am
Mr Cowsham,
You are displaying your ignorance of the law and Highway Code, and showing an irresponsible approach to driving on the public highway.
I almost wish you had done so before I replied to your thread; you really are in no position to be criticising vulnerable road users (pedestrians in this case).
Exactly.
This attitude is one which endangers cyclists too.
I have found that many drivers refuse to accept H.C. para.126.
Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear.
This is unambiguous, but obeying it would mean, for many drivers, driving more slowly. They consider this an infringement of their rights.
It is disappointing to find a cyclist taking the same view.
Do you ride against the flow of traffic on right hand bends Mike ?
Of course not, and in my short driving career I went round blind bends at what the H.C. defines as the appropriate speed.
Neither did I break speed limits, or drive up the exhaust pipe of the car in front etc. These faults I can observe in drivers any day.
I have posted before about the way the police or road safety officers, commenting on a cyclist being hit by a vehicle, exhort cyclists to wear hi-viz, but never mention H.C. para. 126. Hi-viz is not visible round a blind corner!
What I am getting at is how you, and motorists generally, want to put all the onus on vulnerable road users, but none on those who introduce the danger onto our roads. Just a a little of "look out better, if you cannot see the road is clear, don't charge into the blank space. If you are blinded by the sun, then slow down or stop, if necessary." would be welcome.
The standard of driving on our roads is very low, and taking all possible care on your bike may not keep you safe, but there is so little done to improve driving, and so much advice to the vulnerable to keep out of the way.
It is understandably thought necessary to teach primary school children road safety, whereas in all other areas of life adults are expected to do all they can to keep children safe, because they cannot be relied on to think before they run. On the roads it is motorists who cannot be expected to slow right down when children are around.
What is it with drivers and speed anyway? Why do they have to go so fast on roads shared with all manner of users?
Last edited by Mike Sales on 13 May 2021, 2:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mjr
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by mjr »

Cowsham wrote: 12 May 2021, 4:36pm Or you'd creep around the bend anticipating someone walking on your side of the road then another car traveling at speed would hit the rear of yours collecting the walker along with whatever is oncoming on the other side.
As long as the walker and innocent slow motorist are unharmed, that's great because it should remove the incompetent rear speeder from driving, sooner or later!
People need to be taught how to cross the road early enough to be on the outside of a bend and visible.
It is easier to teach drivers how to drive correctly because there are fewer of them and the teaching/testing system already exists, but we have not yet succeeded because some people are still willing to post bad driving advice on forums!

We will never teach all walkers. And absolutely never all animals.
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Red Kite
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Red Kite »

Mike Sales wrote: 13 May 2021, 2:16pm
What I am getting at is how you, and motorists generally, want to put all the onus on vulnerable road users, but none on those who introduce the danger onto our roads. Just a little of "look out better, if you cannot see the road is clear, don't charge into the blank space. If you are blinded by the sun, then slow down or stop, if necessary." would be welcome.
I absolutely agree driving standards are dire, all the more reason not to rely on drivers to avoiding running me over and to take my own precautions.

The reason thousands more don't die on the roads is they take care to keep out of the way of drivers who can't or won't drive responsibly. The plain truth is the onus is very much on me as a cyclist or pedestrian to do all I reasonably can to avoid becoming a casualty.

I might be entitled to ride on a derestricted dual carriageway but I am sure as hell not doing it.
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mattheus
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by mattheus »

Red Kite wrote: 13 May 2021, 2:45pm ...

The reason thousands more don't die on the roads is they take care to keep out of the way of drivers who can't or won't drive responsibly. The plain truth is the onus is very much on me as a cyclist or pedestrian to do all I reasonably can to avoid becoming a casualty.

I might be entitled to ride on a derestricted dual carriageway but I am sure as hell not doing it.
Calm down - no-one is trying to make you walk in a more dangerous way. Do what you're happy with, whatever makes you feel safe.

Meanwhile, please don't join in with those making excuses for dangerous irresponsible drivers :-)
Mike Sales
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Mike Sales »

Red Kite wrote: 13 May 2021, 2:45pm
Mike Sales wrote: 13 May 2021, 2:16pm
What I am getting at is how you, and motorists generally, want to put all the onus on vulnerable road users, but none on those who introduce the danger onto our roads. Just a little of "look out better, if you cannot see the road is clear, don't charge into the blank space. If you are blinded by the sun, then slow down or stop, if necessary." would be welcome.
I absolutely agree driving standards are dire, all the more reason not to rely on drivers to avoiding running me over and to take my own precautions.

The reason thousands more don't die on the roads is they take care to keep out of the way of drivers who can't or won't drive responsibly. The plain truth is the onus is very much on me as a cyclist or pedestrian to do all I reasonably can to avoid becoming a casualty.

I might be entitled to ride on a derestricted dual carriageway but I am sure as hell not doing it.
Part of what provoked me to enter this discussion was a post from a motorist/cyclist who complained, as other drivers have in other discussions I have had, that obeying H.C.126 would slow them down unduly!
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Postboxer
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Postboxer »

I would quote the appropriate post but as it appears it has been edited I won't, but essentially, the walker doesn't need anywhere to go as the approaching cyclist or driver should have time to stop before getting near to them, and then should be able to carefully drive around them, any traffic approaching from behind or from head on should also have the time to stop before any collision results.
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Cowsham
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Cowsham »

Red Kite wrote: 13 May 2021, 2:45pm
Mike Sales wrote: 13 May 2021, 2:16pm
What I am getting at is how you, and motorists generally, want to put all the onus on vulnerable road users, but none on those who introduce the danger onto our roads. Just a little of "look out better, if you cannot see the road is clear, don't charge into the blank space. If you are blinded by the sun, then slow down or stop, if necessary." would be welcome.
I absolutely agree driving standards are dire, all the more reason not to rely on drivers to avoiding running me over and to take my own precautions.

The reason thousands more don't die on the roads is they take care to keep out of the way of drivers who can't or won't drive responsibly. The plain truth is the onus is very much on me as a cyclist or pedestrian to do all I reasonably can to avoid becoming a casualty.

I might be entitled to ride on a derestricted dual carriageway but I am sure as hell not doing it.
+1
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Cowsham
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Cowsham »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2021, 2:05pm
Cowsham wrote: 12 May 2021, 10:53pm
It may be safer to cross the road well before a sharp right-hand bend so that oncoming traffic has a better chance of seeing you. Cross back after the bend.
Perhaps your wish to somehow prove your point - eg emphasising with bold and underlining - led to your overlooking the absence of legislation beneath these paragraphs (apart from the motorway regs.) ie This is only advice. It's also only a small part of the whole publication which some may prefer to ignore.

This contrasts with the principle advice to drivers which is mandatory:-
Rule 144

You MUST NOT
  • drive dangerously

    drive without due care and attention

    drive without reasonable consideration for other road users.
Law RTA 1988 sects 2 & 3 as amended by RTA 1991
NB Nowhere in the HC is the possibility of colossal traffic jams given as a reason for ignoring the law.

I do accept that the received wisdom in some quarters is that nothing should slow the flow of motor traffic but that doesn't make it right. Beyond that, the bit you hang so much on says "It may be safer..." which I presume means that in in some circumstances, repeatedly crossing a twisting road may not be safe, not least because some selfish drivers won't appreciate why it's happening.

Especially on a forum for vulnerable road users, I think these attitudes must be repudiated.
I agree with all of it and not disputing the fact that the motorist will be to blame if a collision occurs on a blind LH bend if he/she is travelling faster than they can safely stop to avoid it and I've had the experience of having to stop in the middle of a blind bend to let walkers get around me. My worry that day was what other fool would come around behind me at speed.

I've also had the experience of doing the same on bike.

I wince when I see people walking towards a RH bend on the RH side when I'm travelling in the same direction by car or bike. If I'm on the bike or walking I'll tell them you'd be better on this side where other road users will see you ( LH outside of bend where I'll be )
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mattheus
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by mattheus »

Are you still standing by this statement Mr Cowsham?
Cowsham wrote: 12 May 2021, 4:36pm
thirdcrank wrote: 12 May 2021, 2:25pm
It's still drivers' responsibilty to account for these road situations.
That's it. Drivers just need to remember that they cannot see round corners.

I was expecting that quote to pop up but if you can't drive around a bend you can't see around then there would be colossal traffic jams.

Or you'd creep around the bend anticipating someone walking on your side of the road then another car traveling at speed would hit the rear of yours collecting the walker along with whatever is oncoming on the other side
.
[my bold]
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Cowsham wrote: 12 May 2021, 4:36pm
thirdcrank wrote: 12 May 2021, 2:25pm
It's still drivers' responsibilty to account for these road situations.
That's it. Drivers just need to remember that they cannot see round corners.

I was expecting that quote to pop up but if you can't drive around a bend you can't see around then there would be colossal traffic jams.

Or you'd creep around the bend anticipating someone walking on your side of the road then another car traveling at speed would hit the rear of yours collecting the walker along with whatever is oncoming on the other side.

People need to be taught how to cross the road early enough to be on the outside of a bend and visible.

On a two lane road (one in each direction) you should always drive such that you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear (not the distance you can't see an obstruction in).
On a single lane road then that distance needs to be halved, because the person coming the other way needs the "second half" of that distance.

That doesn't cause traffic jams, it just means that your speed varies along a given road, and as for being rear ended - that's *never* the fault of the vehicle in front (assuming it hasn't cut in and brake checked the following vehicle).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Postboxer wrote: 13 May 2021, 3:00pm I would quote the appropriate post but as it appears it has been edited I won't, but essentially, the walker doesn't need anywhere to go as the approaching cyclist or driver should have time to stop before getting near to them, and then should be able to carefully drive around them, any traffic approaching from behind or from head on should also have the time to stop before any collision results.
Being realistic and wanting not to get run into, and at the same time referring to HC, there is a rule which does say not to expect other road users to react instantly or stop immediately. Which is common sense. Both walker and driver or other wheeled user might need somewhere to go.
wjhall
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Re: Walking the wrong way

Post by wjhall »

So far no one has mentioned the rule for large groups of people, rule 5 (2015 edition). In the 1968 edition it refers to groups marching on the road.
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