Cycling UK Forum

I remember being very dissapointed with the touring info for India and Sri Lanka before my first trips there. It was all out of date and did not reflect the way most people tour those countries nowadays - however, when I came back what did I do - NOTHING. So I can't really comment on or criticise the CTC for that. Now I do my own research on 'live sites', like this (a little bit) the Lonely Planet (a lot) and others like crazyguy.

From the CTC, I get:
a campaigning organisation for something I care about;
the mag;
insurance (only the free 3rd party, all the rest is ridiculously overpriced) and;
my money (subs) back in the 10% discount in my LBS.

This is much more than I get from my membership of Amnesty, but I wouldn't dream of leaving them.

Happy to be in.

Where the CTC members site falls down with it's touring information being out of date, is due to how the site is set up. It relies on the information being sent in by members or compiled by the CTC officers and then added to the site by the webmaster.

Where Neil Gunton's 'Crazyguyonabike' succeeds is due to the fact that anyone can easily register with the site and then add their own travelogues through their web browser.

Perhaps the CTC needs to look at using similar open source software to that used by Neil so that members could easily add their travelogues or touring information.

The CGOAB site works because people give up their time freely to add information to help fellow tourers, and the same happens on this forum and many others. With any club and the CTC is no exception, there are the takers and there are the givers. Unfortunately the takers seem to be in the majority and expect to take without giving anything back.

If only everyone gave something back in return for what they have taken, then the club and the world would be a better place.

By the way CTC membership is worth it, not only for the reasons mentioned by other members above but for an extra benefit of the members discount at the CTC online shop. I have easily got back my subs for this year in discounts!

Cycletourer's post reminded me of the Cycletourer site, another great website for Cycletourists.

http://www.cycletourer.co.uk

Karen Sutton wrote:Cycletourer's post reminded me of the Cycletourer site, another great website for Cycletourists.

http://www.cycletourer.co.uk

Glad you like our site Karen. We started it back in 98 when there wasn't much on the the net for cycletourists. We have enjoyed our cycle tours so much we thought it would be nice to give something back.

I have to say I agree with the original post - there is no point joining the CTC when so much stuff is for free on the internet. Why would you pay £50 for something that is free elsewhere?

The best thing about the CTC is this free forum where I get advice from other cyclists and I try to do the same in return although not a member. The Sustrans site is another disappointment with its horrific mapping software. In an age of Google maps its a nightmare.

Not sure why CTC and Sustrans who receive money are poorer than free offerings but I think they would benefit from changing their business models and embracing Internet principles.

andyjef wrote:The whole format for giving route information also looks very outdated. When was the whole web site and presentation of the route info last updated ?
...
Am I being too critical ?

A slightly disappointed, but hoping it will improve, andyjef

This is exactly what I felt when I joined (about a year ago). I'm very glad I joined as it's a good advocacy org. and to me anything else is an additional bonus, but it doesn't seem that besides this forum there's much online for me (I'm 23).

It seems to me that the route maps and descriptions are not that useful as (a) there's not the critical mass of routes to make it the go-to destination, and (b) it's presented in such an early 2000s manner (I know, sneering youth. What I mean by this is that there's no reason to consult the CTC's database because it's nothing like as functional or useful as others). I really don't think it would be beyond the means of the CTC to hire a graduate web intern on a yearly basis who could do a couple of things:

- update the way everything's presented and make the CTC website more navigable and integrated (from members' to public areas, clearer sections, etc). Right now I feel that the CTC website only is really useful to people who choose to look exclusively there, rather than people being pointed there because it's useful;

- actively add routes from members and have them sign off on them / make the whole process more smooth. I know the process is really now (I've added a few local ones of my own) but, for instance, there are new routes being added on the forum all the time that (mostly) aren't going into the route database. That's because it's not as transparent, navigable and integrated as it could be.

Don't get me wrong-- I won't let my membership lapse for anything, it just seems that the CTC's web strategy could use an overhaul. This is the sort of top-down decision making that I would turn to the club for leadership on, as it can't be a 'member-driven' change.

cycletourer wrote:Perhaps the CTC needs to look at using similar open source software to that used by Neil so that members could easily add their travelogues or touring information.

As I say, I don't think it would be too hard to get a graduate on a one year scheme to work on updating and overhauling the whole process.

andy_scot_uk wrote: The Sustrans site is another disappointment with its horrific mapping software. In an age of Google maps its a nightmare.

I certainly agree with you on that one. Trying to work out where a National route goes on the Sustrans site is a nightmare, when you compare it to the simplicity and ease of use of say the Belgian Groteroutepaden or the Dutch LF Fietsrouteplanner.

Seems like I opened a bit of a can of worms !

Being serious though, I *do* think CTC should look hard at certain parts of this website - ie the routes sections in particular. There have been some very good - and relatively cheaply implemented ! ( ie Cycletourer's, Skiddie's and AndyScot's ) - suggestions made earlier about taking on board the best ideas / structures of other cyclists sites ...

Come on CTC - wake up to these points and do something about it !? At least respond to the many good and practical points being made here. ( Is there no-one from CTC actually reading any of these posts ?! ) We don't expect you to change things just for one member but I paid you quite a lot of money and I'd like to see some thing a little more user friendly and modern. More modern / easy to use = more postings and routes sent in = more up to date etc etc

Rant over ! Apologies for being quite new but a bit critical and thanks to all who gave their views and opinions. I take on board many points made.

Andy

Is there no-one from CTC actually reading any of these posts ?!

I may sound like a stuck record, much to the annoyance of some , but I will say it again for the benefit of peoplenew to the forum: this forum is for CTC members to communicate with each other rather than to make communications to the HO staff. If you are lucky one of the HO staff might notice your post, but to expect them to trawl through each and every thread and post, as well as do the full time job that they are paid for, is expecting a little much is it not? Of course, they could employ someone to do this but then the money would have to be found from somewhere (ie subs) to do so.

Thus, if you want to get your views across to those who make the decissions then you are best off emailing, writing to or phoning them directly (get contact detail from CTC main site) or talking to your local councillor.

Yes, fair enough, we can't expect CTC staff to read every posting on the forum...but...the best organisations tend to be proactive, rather than reactive! So I would have thought that encouraging staff to keep an eye on issues being discussed on the board would be a sensible idea. Or could a 'CTC comment' be set up for people to air their views about the organisation? I think you'll find that ordinary members are far more likely to discuss concerns on the forum than get round to submitting individual views by contacting staff directly. So lets all be proactive and make CTC a better place!

Thanks for replying Si, and yes, you've made very logical and practical points there. I will send a mail asking if there are any plans to update the structure of the sections I've been disappointed with certainly.

Andy

Did you get a reply from the CTC? I would be interested to see what it says.

I do not know how many employees there are in the CTC but engaging with potential volunteers on these boards who may be willing to contribute to the online presence could be beneficial and cost effective. The purpose of the CTC is to promote cycling and they could make it easier by having modern internet tools that allow the members to add value to the site and perhaps generate sales for the items they sell.

cycletourer wrote:Where the CTC members site falls down with it's touring information being out of date, is due to how the site is set up. It relies on the information being sent in by members or compiled by the CTC officers and then added to the site by the webmaster.

I'm the webmaster of the new CTC mapping site, and that's not quite correct these days. Any CTC member can upload their routes to the CTC Maps site, either adding them on-line or from Google Earth, GPS, or Tracklogs files.

The problem we have with the routes is historical. Until a year or so ago all routes were Microsoft Word documents, in a huge range of different formats (from chatty diary accounts that vaguely mention placenames passed through, to detailed tables with distances and every turn instruction). There are many hundreds of these documents, and they were relatively difficult to find or access.

We also have the current situation that the route sheets are a CTC member benefit. This provides value to CTC membership, but prevents the route information being accessed by non-members.

We now have them all indexed on the new site, at least by their starting location. This means you can find them by a location on the map, which is much more reliable than guessing placenames that might or might not appear in the routes.

At some point we hope to "digitise" the old paper-based routes, but allowing perhaps a day or so for each one this will take a few man-years. There is currently no funding allocated for this work, but we're very happy to accept updates, tracklines (from GPS, Google Earth, etc.) and add them where needed.

Another issue we have discovered is the differing needs of people who want a list of turn instructions, and those who prefer a datafile for their GPS. GPS users rarely use turn instructions, and their data files very rarely include them. On the other hand, traditional route sheets, such as the original CTC route library, tend to have turn instructions but no line to plot on a map.

The CTC Maps site is, I think, unique in that it allows people to add routes both in modern digital format (nice line on the map, but few instructions) and in the traditional paper-based format (detailed turn instructions, but no line on the map).

I am very receptive to ways we might improve the CTC maps library, as with the combined expertise of CTC members we should be able to build a good one. Please feel free to PM or e-mail me with ideas (or offers of help!).

FWIW the CTC are very aware of the limitations of their current web site(s) (including the ones I've written and worked on!). As I understand it they are investigating alternative options, including open source software (such as Drupal).

So in year or so, perhaps sooner, you might be pleased to see a new and more usable web site for the CTC. It's a huge job though, so don't hold your breath!

It's relatively easy for individuals with no particular responsibility to any group, and no historical data, to create modern websites using the latest technology. It's a whole different problem moving a large organisation like the CTC to use a completely new system, and you have to be pretty sure you're going in the right direction before you start spending members' money on the changes.

Having said that I'm optimistic that the CTC web presence will see some changes for the better in the next year or so. Any ideas for improvements (other than obvious improvements to navigation and search) are very welcome: the site should be as useful for CTC members as possible!