Derailleur alignment tool recommendations?

[Brucey]

a nutted wheel can exert a much higher clamping force and the end of the axle is much less likely to bend too. You would feel a proper Charlie if you snapped the end of someone's QR skewer....

But I thought it was the derailleur hanger (ie an integral part of the frame) that was being bent: I don;t see the connection with either wheel nuts vs QR?
Does that comment only apply to modern replaceable hangers?

this is in the context of using a second wheel as a dropout aligning tool.

cheers

[Gattonero]

For those spending other peoples money on tools.
Abbey Tools makes a titanium version of their Hanger tool, $325
the steel version is a mere $185.

Both have replaceable brass bushes for the T-bolt, so accuracy can be maintained
if you happen to wear the tool out, trying to align 14 speed drive trains in the future.

Silca will no doubt build an alignment tool involving lasers and bluetooth,
should be around $500.

Abandon all hope ye who go here.....
https://www.abbeybiketools.com/collections/tools

So are we do start a petition for closing down Fortnum&Mason, burn down Aston Martin and Ferrari factories, and get rid of Waitrose?
Don;t know about you, but I'm not used to keep track of other people's expense and how they do them...

In fact, if you knew the guy who's behind those "expensive" tools, you will know he's a pro mechanic who travels a lot, and those tools are made exactly for professional mechanics on the move, where saving 5kg on the tool bag becomes a few hundred dollars per year saved in extra-baggage expense per flight.
There's a time and a place for most things, those tools are very much the best that can be designed and manufactured with no expense spared. Clearly not a toy or the average tool for most.

[Gattonero]

a nutted wheel can exert a much higher clamping force and the end of the axle is much less likely to bend too. You would feel a proper Charlie if you snapped the end of someone's QR skewer....

But I thought it was the derailleur hanger (ie an integral part of the frame) that was being bent: I don;t see the connection with either wheel nuts vs QR?
Does that comment only apply to modern replaceable hangers?

It's the usual over-thinking there.
Reality shows that the average force you want to use on a derailleur hanger will never, ever, cause any trouble even with the lightest QR skewers out there. There's no need to use a nutted wheel, it only needs a full-metal skewer when dealing with big-time trouble that requires the use of a butane torch.

[RickH]

I think some folk are going off on a tangent of misunderstanding!

Reference to a nutted, solid axle wheel is not to have it between the dropouts but to screw into the derailleur hanger (same thread) to use the (nutted, solid axle) wheel as a hanger alignment tool.

[Gattonero]

If you read my posts above, what I'm saying is that you are not to use such amount of force that requires the use of a "nutted" wheel.
A few mass-production bikes out there have dropouts with limited engagement of the wheel axle

and/or the replaceable hanger is very thin and held in place by two very small screws


Also, a wheel bolted on the mech hanger can be too much mass in some cases, plus is offset from the center of the original wheel that sits in the frame so you can have false measurements when comparing the distance of the two wheels.
There is a reason why everyone does use the proper tool, is not like they're all fools and there's only one wise person out there

[fausto99]

since I'm happier with just a spare wheel than any tool I can buy, it says much about a) whether I'm a bad workman and b) the quality of the tools that are available.....

Putting up with any slop in the pivot when it is easily avoided just seems crazy to me.

cheers

It's quite easy to use brass shim to eliminate pivot slop. I did this to the cheap X-tools one from Chain Reaction. I'm somewhat surprised that an alignment tool(!) with so much slop is offered for sale. Nothing wrong with it now and much more convenient to use and store than a spare solid axle wheel.

[Brucey]

….Also, a wheel bolted on the mech hanger can be too much mass in some cases.....

if you are genuinely concerned about this (and I'm not at all sure you should be tbh) just lay the bike on its side whilst working on it. BTW a wheel always exerts the same load, whereas tools are always imbalanced, i.e. their weight always makes bending the hanger easier in one direction than the other, and this varies with the tool orientation. Maybe you should worry yourself about that too.

... plus is offset from the center of the original wheel that sits in the frame so you can have false measurements when comparing the distance of the two wheels....

er, the same applies to a dedicated tool, too. If you suspect the/either wheel isn't perfectly straight, you just compare the same points on the wheel(s) each time, turning it/them to the right position.

FWIW the accuracy of any tool is critically dependant on the straightness of the 'axle'. This is easier to check in a wheel, especially if it is (unlike commercial tools) play-free.

Oh, did I mention that (with typically flimsy hangers) a front wheel works perfectly well? This means that you always have 'a tool' with you and it costs precisely zero.

NB the revised 'axle' I made for my park tool is adjustable so it will never 'wear out' or need re-shimming.

cheers

[Gattonero]

….Also, a wheel bolted on the mech hanger can be too much mass in some cases.....

if you are genuinely concerned about this (and I'm not at all sure you should be tbh) just lay the bike on its side whilst working on it. BTW a wheel always exerts the same load, whereas tools are always imbalanced, i.e. their weight always makes bending the hanger easier in one direction than the other, and this varies with the tool orientation. Maybe you should worry yourself about that too.

The weight of the tool is most irrelevant compared to that of a nutted wheel which ought to be a low-end quality hence on the heavy side.
Just try and see this is no concern at all

... plus is offset from the center of the original wheel that sits in the frame so you can have false measurements when comparing the distance of the two wheels....

er, the same applies to a dedicated tool, too. If you suspect the/either wheel isn't perfectly straight, you just compare the same points on the wheel(s) each time, turning it/them to the right position.

er... no. The dedicate tool has a sliding gauge that is made right for the purpose. Wonder why was put there for a reason?

FWIW the accuracy of any tool is critically dependant on the straightness of the 'axle'. This is easier to check in a wheel, especially if it is (unlike commercial tools) play-free.

The axle/pivot of the dedicated tool is usually cast & machined, likely more straight since is a short piece.
In the case of the P.T. one, is a chunky piece of steel that is most unlikely to deform, the frame will be destroyed well before that! (again, I've no idea what sort of bashing and smashing you think a frame needs to go trough for a "repair"!)

Oh, did I mention that (with typically flimsy hangers) a front wheel works perfectly well? This means that you always have 'a tool' with you and it costs precisely zero.

A front wheel with a 10x1mm threaded axle? When? Where? I'm sure we all have got a spare one

NB the revised 'axle' I made for my park tool is adjustable so it will never 'wear out' or need re-shimming.

cheers

I'm sure you know better than the manufacturers. As always.

[Brucey]

The weight of the tool is most irrelevant …

... so is the weight of a wheel in fact. 'Try it and see' indeed..... Does the phrase 'tongue in cheek' ring any bells...?

The dedicate tool has a sliding gauge that is made right for the purpose.

er, as previously mentioned this was made so badly it was the first thing on my park tool which went in the bin....

Oh, did I mention that (with typically flimsy hangers) a front wheel works perfectly well? This means that you always have 'a tool' with you and it costs precisely zero.

A front wheel with a 10x1mm threaded axle? When? Where? I'm sure we all have got a spare one

doesn't have to be M10 if it is clamping either side of the hanger....

NB the revised 'axle' I made for my park tool is adjustable so it will never 'wear out' or need re-shimming.

I'm sure you know better than the manufacturers. As always.

Er, I've used my revised tool, you haven't. You are putting up with slop in your tool; I'm not (and I never will). When/if the thing gets worn, I shall be able to replace/rebuild/adjust it using stuff that is easily obtained (you probably have what is required in your workshop already....). Please forgive me if I can't see how this is not an unequivocal improvement....

In conclusion; having used various methods for straightening hangers I would earnestly suggest that for a one-off operation you certainly don't need to buy a special tool to do the job; you can use a wheel or make a tool very easily. Special tools which are commercially available have as many shortcomings as advantages IME; having owned and used an 'industry standard' tool I can only describe it as 'very disappointing indeed' (it was very easy to improve it) and was, for anyone who is remotely handy, 'a complete waste of money'. Why anyone would defend such tools in the face of their (fairly obvious) shortcomings is quite beyond me; Park tool make some good tools (which I am happy to recommend), but IMHO that ain't one of them.

cheers

[Gattonero]

The weight of the tool is most irrelevant …

... so is the weight of a wheel in fact. 'Try it and see' indeed..... Does the phrase 'tongue in cheek' ring any bells...?

The weight of the dedicated tool.
Also, this cause less than an effect due to the small overhang, vs a wheel which is a mass that cantilevers far from the dropout.... you know the maths

The dedicate tool has a sliding gauge that is made right for the purpose.

er, as previously mentioned this was made so badly it was the first thing on my park tool which went in the bin....

Again, bad tradesman blames the tools. Hundreds of thousands of people out there do not have a problem with it, not even the ones working with 12sp setups.

Oh, did I mention that (with typically flimsy hangers) a front wheel works perfectly well? This means that you always have 'a tool' with you and it costs precisely zero.

A front wheel with a 10x1mm threaded axle? When? Where? I'm sure we all have got a spare one

doesn't have to be M10 if it is clamping either side of the hanger....

Then you have just as much "slop" as the dedicated tool, what's the advantage of claiming "zero play" when you're fitting a 9mm axle into a 10mm hole?

NB the revised 'axle' I made for my park tool is adjustable so it will never 'wear out' or need re-shimming.

I'm sure you know better than the manufacturers. As always.

Er, I've used my revised tool, you haven't. You are putting up with slop in your tool; I'm not (and I never will). When/if the thing gets worn, I shall be able to replace/rebuild/adjust it using stuff that is easily obtained (you probably have what is required in your workshop already....). Please forgive me if I can't see how this is not an unequivocal improvement....

Again, you're obsessed with the play in the tool, which doesn't need this accuracy in the very first place: the RD itself will have more play in the pivots than the alignment tool, let alone the frame and the freehub been aligned altogether.
So many variables that it actually allows for many "tools" to be used (see below)

In conclusion; having used various methods for straightening hangers I would earnestly suggest that for a one-off operation you certainly don't need to buy a special tool to do the job; you can use a wheel or make a tool very easily. Special tools which are commercially available have as many shortcomings as advantages IME; having owned and used an 'industry standard' tool I can only describe it as 'very disappointing indeed' (it was very easy to improve it) and was, for anyone who is remotely handy, 'a complete waste of money'. Why anyone would defend such tools in the face of their (fairly obvious) shortcomings is quite beyond me; Park tool make some good tools (which I am happy to recommend), but IMHO that ain't one of them.

cheers

There are many ways to perform a repair, making tools is always an option and many ways can work, but not everybody has got facilities to create their own tools. That is the very reason why commercial tools are available: ready to be used and time-saving for both their availability and use. It'd be comic to see a professional mechanic that routinely uses a spare wheel and verniers to align a derailleur hanger, or a piece of wood with a threaded axle clamped in the middle of it.
Then, lots of them do use that dedicated tool without major problems, perhaps because they just get the work done without overthinking? The tool is meant to perform a job, and that one does it mostly good. For hundreds of thousands of people that are obviously fools or do a bad job?

[Brucey]

FWIW very many of the PT hanger alignment tools I see in regular use have 'lost' their pointers too. Mostly they are removed and discarded, like mine was. Some have broken.

You persist in defending tools that are clearly of inferior design; cheap jibes will make no difference to that. Except for temporary/roadside repairs it doesn't matter if there is play in the mech or if the mech is bent or whatever; the objective is to get the hanger straight and if the RD is bent, it too needs to be straightened or replaced. Repeatedly resetting hangers to match the amount of deformation in this week's RD is a highway to hell IMHO. All the errors add up, and accepting a crap tool (most of which have some free play when they are new) is just one step in an entirely wrong-headed journey.

If a play-free tool were difficult/expensive to make or of no advantage whatsoever, then it might be acceptable to have a wobbly one (that can put the kiss of death on damaged threads too). However it wouldn't even be expensive or difficult to make the tool to a better design. As it is, it is an almost perfect example of a crap design; it costs a fortune, it is (or soon becomes) wobbly, it can cause damage where there is no need for it and the design is easily improved upon.

Duh.

cheers

[fastpedaller]

I think a good tool could be made using a spare rear hub and a musen ring clamped around the hub barrel and the addition of suitable parts. That's if a suitable size of musen ring can be sourced. With a good, adjusted hub there will be no bearing play. Good for checking, but not suitable for bending the hanger though

[jb]

On a mech. with a high range of gears resulting in a large 90 degree swivel of the cage it's theoretically possible for a mech that is aligned properly when the cage is vertical to be slightly miss aligned when its horizontal, if the hanger is not quite straight or twisted slightly. However I'm not convinced the alignment of a bent hanger needs to be down to microns even for this situation, there are far more areas for wear to cause alignment issues as soon as a mech. gets any age about it.

[Brucey]

On a mech. with a high range of gears resulting in a large 90 degree swivel of the cage it's theoretically possible for a mech that is aligned properly when the cage is vertical to be slightly miss aligned when its horizontal, if the hanger is not quite straight or twisted slightly. However I'm not convinced the alignment of a bent hanger needs to be down to microns even for this situation, there are far more areas for wear to cause alignment issues as soon as a mech. gets any age about it.

I've seen lots of mechs that got bent in such a way as the lower pivot was no longer paralell with the axle, and they had been 'straightened' so that the pulley cage was basically aligned when it was vertical (as viewed from the side, when taking up a middling amount of slack). Those RDs also manifested enormous toe errors when the pulley cage was far away from vertical; two wrongs certainly don't make a right here.

cheers

[scottg]

In fact, if you knew the guy who's behind those "expensive" tools, you will know he's a pro mechanic who travels a lot, and those tools are made exactly for professional mechanics on the move, where saving 5kg on the tool bag becomes a few hundred dollars per year saved in extra-baggage expense per flight.
There's a time and a place for most things, those tools are very much the best that can be designed and manufactured with no expense spared. Clearly not a toy or the average tool for most.

When you are spending 'other peoples money', generally transport is provide by the company jet or GFE (government furnished equipment).
Neither entity charge baggage fees, although on smaller jets weight & balance info is required, so light weight tools have their place.

For the record, I own some standard weight Abbey tools, paid for by myself.

I'm waiting for Abbey to institute a BB tool subscription service, every other month they send you the tool for newest BB "standard".