Electric everything.

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Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 7:08pm I think that before more people buy electric cars there should be a firm plan of what system is allowed to take power to a car parked in the street.
I've just come back from a break and saw two cars being charged in the street with cables passing over the garden wall and across the pavement to the cars. The cables were quite thick and looked stiff. You had to make a conscious effort to step over them. It would be dangerous, especially for visually handicapped or the old and infirm, to have these snaking across the pavement from every house without off street parking.
Maybe there should be a requirement that all cables should be run in a channel that is set into the pavement. Anyone just slinging a cable across the pavement to charge a car should be breaking a law.
I looked this up recently and posted something somewhere. Several London councils point out that's it illegal, but I've seen stronger worded warnings.

I think that we'll probably see quite a few cables across pavements both with and without those black and yellow ramps.

Jonathan
jb
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by jb »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 1:15pm
jb wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 1:07pm The company I work for is spending millions on hydrogen fuel cell technology. Hydrogen will be slow to get going with having almost zero infrastructure but once it starts I predict a mixture of battery and hydrogen probably using the same base chassis & motors.
All this talk of charging problems will be found to be unwarented.
I don't see that hydrogen infrastructure ever getting there for "cars". There are too many barriers that all have to be solved. And the full-cycle efficiency looks too low.

Trucks and ships and 'planes are a different matter.

Jonathan
Investment in truck stops for hydrogen can quickly be utilized by private cars.
Trucks use a relatively precise amount of fuel so they will be more willing to move over to hydrogen with guaranteed fuel points.
Given hydrogen is an ideal way of storing surplus electricity this could have more backing than you might think.
Cheers
J Bro
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Hydrogen ideal?

The round trip efficiency is generally shocking, certainly when compared with Li-ion (good for short term, limited capacity storage), pumped hydro, other gravitational battery schemes, thermophotovoltaic storage...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 12:52pm
reohn2 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 10:35am To state the obvious the problem is charge time,filling up with liquid takes 5 to 10mins max unless there's a queue for the pumps.
Filling up with electric takes much longer even with fast chargers so the car needs to be left unattended,supermarkets have it sewn up plug in,shop,unplug.
Park and ride less so due to the time the car is left unattended,so needs attending to in some way or other,.
TBH I can't see that situation being remedied by automation with all the different positions of charge points on all the diffent cars.Are all E plugs the same now?
I'm waaayyyy behind on how advanced automation is these days,hence my suggestion of an attendant altough a personal touch in an increasingly automated and insular world isn't such a bad thing,as well an keeping an eye on a carpark and keeping them in work.
You can't have people without the car keys unplugging your car - the connector (at least for CCS) is locked in place by the car, not the charger.
The solution to this "problem" is to use slower chargers where you expect to be parked for longer, they're also much cheaper to install.

Charge time isn't that serious a problem, very few cars are perpetually on the road - you park when you sleep, when you work, when you visit the local town... you just need to be able to find one of those where you can charge - and for the vast majority that will be at home whilst they sleep.

Long journeys are the obvious exception, where you need to fill up and go, hence having DC chargers at services, and even supermarkets just off the motorway (much cheaper and better choice of food).
At the moment if you're doing long journeys a plug in diesel hybrid may be a better choice than pure electric. We've an E300de on order, arriving in a couple of weeks. Interesting to see what it'll be like. Electric range is about 33 miles , enough for the daily commute it'll be used for and charge time about 5 hours from an ordinary 13amp socket. It'll be replaced in a couple of years time when we may go fully electric. By then there'll be more choice of decent electric cars and much better infrastructure.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
jb
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by jb »

Gravity storage doesn't quite have the energy density of hydrogen though.
Cheers
J Bro
Stevek76
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

Yes, trailing a cable across the pavement, even with a ramp, is likely to be a contravention of the highways act 1980, particularly given it will be unattended.

Another thing EVs won't do much for:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... tudy-finds
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
pete75
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by pete75 »

Stevek76 wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 8:48pm Yes, trailing a cable across the pavement, even with a ramp, is likely to be a contravention of the highways act 1980, particularly given it will be unattended.

Another thing EVs won't do much for:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... tudy-finds
Eh? They're quieter so should reduce transport noise.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Stevek76
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

Not really, engine noise is only significant at low speeds. At about 15mph tyre rolling noise becomes an equal factor and rapidly dominates entirely above that.
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Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

"Work has started immediately at the 99MW / 198MWh Clay Tye site near the M25 in Essex, which is the biggest project of its kind under construction in the UK in terms of energy capacity. It will use a system of Tesla Megapack lithium-ion batteries, together with Tesla’s Autobidder AI software for real-time trading and control."
https://electrek.co/2021/09/07/tesla-me ... uction-uk/

Jonathan
pete75
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by pete75 »

Stevek76 wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 9:34pm Not really, engine noise is only significant at low speeds. At about 15mph tyre rolling noise becomes an equal factor and rapidly dominates entirely above that.
Really? Our village is over a mile from the main road and I often hear vehicles accelerating hard from a corner and up a hill. They're doing a damn sight more than 15mph. Can't hear any tyre noise just exhaust.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Stevek76
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

Conversely go and stand on a bridge over a motorway and tell me how many actual engines you can hear. I live about 20m from a 20mph road that's usually traversed 30-35 at this time of night, of the cars that are passing I can hear any engine noise at all on less than 1 in 5. The engine of the bus that just went past is certainly noisy, as those of idiots in badly modified cars can be but mostly it's rolling noise.

Big difference between averages and specific situations.

There are empirically derived graphs of such matters in text books on noise pollution. Eg

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Pro ... _266205731
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pete75 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 10:44pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 12:52pm
reohn2 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 10:35am To state the obvious the problem is charge time,filling up with liquid takes 5 to 10mins max unless there's a queue for the pumps.
Filling up with electric takes much longer even with fast chargers so the car needs to be left unattended,supermarkets have it sewn up plug in,shop,unplug.
Park and ride less so due to the time the car is left unattended,so needs attending to in some way or other,.
TBH I can't see that situation being remedied by automation with all the different positions of charge points on all the diffent cars.Are all E plugs the same now?
I'm waaayyyy behind on how advanced automation is these days,hence my suggestion of an attendant altough a personal touch in an increasingly automated and insular world isn't such a bad thing,as well an keeping an eye on a carpark and keeping them in work.
You can't have people without the car keys unplugging your car - the connector (at least for CCS) is locked in place by the car, not the charger.
The solution to this "problem" is to use slower chargers where you expect to be parked for longer, they're also much cheaper to install.

Charge time isn't that serious a problem, very few cars are perpetually on the road - you park when you sleep, when you work, when you visit the local town... you just need to be able to find one of those where you can charge - and for the vast majority that will be at home whilst they sleep.

Long journeys are the obvious exception, where you need to fill up and go, hence having DC chargers at services, and even supermarkets just off the motorway (much cheaper and better choice of food).
At the moment if you're doing long journeys a plug in diesel hybrid may be a better choice than pure electric. We've an E300de on order, arriving in a couple of weeks. Interesting to see what it'll be like. Electric range is about 33 miles , enough for the daily commute it'll be used for and charge time about 5 hours from an ordinary 13amp socket. It'll be replaced in a couple of years time when we may go fully electric. By then there'll be more choice of decent electric cars and much better infrastructure.
Nah, only need it a few days a year - why lug about (and service) a diesel for that?

I’d far rather AlAir batteries or similar for the rare journeys
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Stevek76 wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 9:34pm Not really, engine noise is only significant at low speeds. At about 15mph tyre rolling noise becomes an equal factor and rapidly dominates entirely above that.
Well it’s enough quieter than I can hear a conversation in the car in one and can’t in the other - applies as much at a standstill as when moving at any speed.

And from outside they are certainly much quieter around town (where the biggest issue is)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 11:39pm
pete75 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 10:44pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 12:52pm

You can't have people without the car keys unplugging your car - the connector (at least for CCS) is locked in place by the car, not the charger.
The solution to this "problem" is to use slower chargers where you expect to be parked for longer, they're also much cheaper to install.

Charge time isn't that serious a problem, very few cars are perpetually on the road - you park when you sleep, when you work, when you visit the local town... you just need to be able to find one of those where you can charge - and for the vast majority that will be at home whilst they sleep.

Long journeys are the obvious exception, where you need to fill up and go, hence having DC chargers at services, and even supermarkets just off the motorway (much cheaper and better choice of food).
At the moment if you're doing long journeys a plug in diesel hybrid may be a better choice than pure electric. We've an E300de on order, arriving in a couple of weeks. Interesting to see what it'll be like. Electric range is about 33 miles , enough for the daily commute it'll be used for and charge time about 5 hours from an ordinary 13amp socket. It'll be replaced in a couple of years time when we may go fully electric. By then there'll be more choice of decent electric cars and much better infrastructure.
Nah, only need it a few days a year - why lug about (and service) a diesel for that?

I’d far rather AlAir batteries or similar for the rare journeys
Well it's fine for you if you rarely do long journeys. We do them quite often. How does high speed cruising affect battery range?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 24 Aug 2021, 4:32pm
al_yrpal wrote: 24 Aug 2021, 2:56pm Well Mr Kwateng put his foot in it with his "heat pumps are that much worse than boilers" statement. An unqualified statement by an unqualified bloke. But...there is probably some truth there. Like early solar panel installations many are likely to be faulty in various fashions. Radiators being too small in gas or oil to heat pump conversion situations for a start. Powered by electricity generated largely from fossil fuels another. Confusing coefficient of performance with efficuency yet another.
However we have to start somewhere. If someone is prepared to finance digging up a huge section of my lawn and reinstating it to install a ground source I'll be there with my begging bowl.
Frankly even a mediocre heat pump can push more heat into a house than a perfect boiler given the same amount of gas to start with (because the gas being burnt in a power station is multiplied by the heat pump coefficient).

Not having appropriately sized radiators isn't a heat pump problem - although it is more noticeable at that point. Of course the real answer is to run the heat pump for longer, at an even lower power input.
"Experts say effective subsidies for new gas boilers run contrary to government targets on cutting greenhouse gas emissions"
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... boilers-uk

Jonathan
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