Electric everything.

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

al_yrpal wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 4:14pm Supposed battery breakthrough....

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36730408/

High enough energy density to enable a 1000 mile range car and electric short haul aeroplane!

Al
There is already a 1000 mile range car, and short haul electric already exists (for certain definitions of short haul)

The Aptera already does 1000 miles, and others are looking at AlAir batteries:
https://eepower.com/news/ev-with-1000-m ... -phinergy/

https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight ... -aircraft/


But new chemistries are always interesting... I'm more interested in making lighter batteries of around 60kWh for EVs, and cheaper batteries for grid/home storage... where mass isn't typically relevant.
A thousand miles is a bit of a weird target (though I know why Aptera went that route), it's just not all that useful... getting 250 miles cheaper, and lighter, is much more interesting.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 1306
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm
Location: Duddington, in the belly button of England

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

How many people need to carry around 1000 miles worth of hardware? That in itself is wasteful and thus environmentally unsound, in most case.
MIAS L5.1 instructor - advanded road and off road skills, FAST aid and casualty care, defensive tactics, SAR skills, nav, group riding, maintenance, ride and group leader qual'd.
Cytec 2 - exponent of hammer applied brute force.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Lance Dopestrong wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 5:01pm How many people need to carry around 1000 miles worth of hardware? That in itself is wasteful and thus environmentally unsound, in most case.
The aptera manages it with "only" a 100kWh battery - but yes, it's a "headline grabbing" model, not one I expect they'll actually sell many of.
They also offer models down to a 25kWh battery which will do 250 miles - much more reasonable.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
ANTONISH
Posts: 2986
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by ANTONISH »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 6 Mar 2023, 2:41pm
ANTONISH wrote: 6 Mar 2023, 9:48am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 6 Mar 2023, 8:23am
The electricity can then be used efficiently- it takes less gas, burnt in a power station, to heat your home, your water, and cook your food than it would burning it at point of use.


Massively more efficient - but yes, I am assuming heat pumps since resistive heating is limited to 100% efficiency (and it achieves that), but a heat pump can easily be in excess of 300% "efficient", which is 330% as good as a good boiler.

The boiler uses gas directly at an energy efficiency of around 90%
The heat pump has an efficiency of 330% but that is derived from electricity generated at an efficiency of 60% ( ignoring transmission and distibution losses) so I think the overall energy efficiency of a heat pump is around 60% of 330% which would be 198%.

From the consumer point of view there is the choice of electricity for at 330% efficiency or gas at a boiler efficiency of 90%.
A kWh of electricity is much more expensive than a kWh of gas so there may be no economic advantage - as I explained myself upthread only in that case I was referring to burning oil.

As for cooknig, I'm stuck with electricity - from the past I remember gas as being more controllable.
User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 1306
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm
Location: Duddington, in the belly button of England

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

Not much solar output today - the panels are covered in snow.
MIAS L5.1 instructor - advanded road and off road skills, FAST aid and casualty care, defensive tactics, SAR skills, nav, group riding, maintenance, ride and group leader qual'd.
Cytec 2 - exponent of hammer applied brute force.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Quotes got a bit messed up there.
From the consumer point of view there is the choice of electricity for at 330% efficiency or gas at a boiler efficiency of 90%.
A kWh of electricity is much more expensive than a kWh of gas so there may be no economic advantage - as I explained myself upthread only in that case I was referring to burning oil.
The 330% was taking a relatively low SCOP, and accounting for the 90% already.
But yes, there is only a direct economic benefit if your kWh cost of electrons is not more than ~3.3 times the kWh cost of gas/oil/wood/whatever.
At the moment my peak rate electrons are a little over 39p, and my gas is a little over 10p.
That gives a ratio of 3.8 (I used the accurate figures), so I'd need (assuming a 90% efficient boiler) a SCOP of 3.4 (good, but not spectacular).
Of course that ignores the fact that off peak I'd run it (for hot water, and some heating) with electrons at 7.5p, needing a SCOP of just 0.7 (stupidly low).
So even with my "expensive" day rate, I would probably break even with a scop around 3.

My battery isn't going to do a huge amount (because it's already working pretty hard), but increasing that (e.g. by using V2L/V2H from an EV) would substantially drop the cost of the electricity, and therefore increase the economic gain.
I'd also not have to have a gas standing charge, or a boiler service agreement, carbon monoxide detectors, etc etc.

ANTONISH wrote: 8 Mar 2023, 10:40am As for cooknig, I'm stuck with electricity - from the past I remember gas as being more controllable.
The control is different - modern electric cookers (whether radiative or induction) are much more controllable than old ceramic pad or coil "burners".

One thing lots of people say is that you can't turn the heat down very fast - but it's fairly easy, you just lift the pan...

It's much easier to stir things over a modern electric hob as well, since you don't burn your hand on all the hot gases bypassing the pan entirely.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Nearholmer
Posts: 4015
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Nearholmer »

Modern gas jobs are far better too, because they come with different-sized burners, so by selecting the best one for your given pot, and using the control effectively, the problem of hos gas coming round the side of the pan can be hugely reduced. Sometimes I shift a big pan to a smaller burner once it’s simmering, to maintain a very gentle simmer. But, electric ones are probably still marginally better in that respect.
User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 11584
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: Electric everything.

Post by al_yrpal »

We have a 2 'burner' induction hob but usually cook on the 2 Aga hobs and in the ovens. Its expensive and not very green but the heat wafting out is very comforting (but the bills arent!) Water in saucepans is dispensed boiling from our Quooker which makes a lot of cooking very quick.

Once you have tried a decent induction hob you wouldnt go back to a radiant hob and in comparison gas hobs are like watching paint dry. The instant reaction of induction and gas is very good. Radiant hobs are awful.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Nearholmer wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 7:55am Modern gas jobs are far better too, because they come with different-sized burners, so by selecting the best one for your given pot, and using the control effectively, the problem of hos gas coming round the side of the pan can be hugely reduced. Sometimes I shift a big pan to a smaller burner once it’s simmering, to maintain a very gentle simmer. But, electric ones are probably still marginally better in that respect.
Sorry - the exhaust gases from the burner have to go around the side of the pot (else they'll extinguish the burner), and they cannot transfer all their heat to the pot - they only have a very short time in contact with the pot, and not in a thin turbulent layer with increased area as with a good heatsink.

You inevitably lose a huge amount of heat around the pot, even with a large pan on the smallest burner.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Cugel »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 10:28am
Nearholmer wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 7:55am Modern gas jobs are far better too, because they come with different-sized burners, so by selecting the best one for your given pot, and using the control effectively, the problem of hos gas coming round the side of the pan can be hugely reduced. Sometimes I shift a big pan to a smaller burner once it’s simmering, to maintain a very gentle simmer. But, electric ones are probably still marginally better in that respect.
Sorry - the exhaust gases from the burner have to go around the side of the pot (else they'll extinguish the burner), and they cannot transfer all their heat to the pot - they only have a very short time in contact with the pot, and not in a thin turbulent layer with increased area as with a good heatsink.

You inevitably lose a huge amount of heat around the pot, even with a large pan on the smallest burner.
Troo, troo. But the trick is to not waste the excess heat from any internal-to-the-house gubbins by insulating the house very well so that the gubbins acquires the additional function of a space heater. This will mean that your main house heater will not come on so often.

Personally I prefer electric hobs as one must develop a better sense of timing and anticipation, which is a necessary skill in any cooking procedure. But if you like the immediacy of gas heat, just make sure you don't waste the residual amount by throwing it all out of the electrically-operated extractor fan. :-)

Mind, if you enjoy a lot of cabbage, you also need to develop a liking for the smell of the stuff, which will linger for some time if not thrown out of the house by the extractor, with the heat. In the worst cases of those who foolishly boil their cabbages in a vigorous fashion and for far too long, you may also have to wipe cabbage-damp from the walls!

Cugel the canny conservationist.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The exhaust gases absolutely should be expelled as soon as possible, the combustion products (and ancilliary stuff from the gas) are not things you want in your house.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Cugel »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 2:54pm The exhaust gases absolutely should be expelled as soon as possible, the combustion products (and ancilliary stuff from the gas) are not things you want in your house.
A good point. Another is that there is no such thing as a "green" gas since it produces not just those nasty combustion products you mention but also the atmosphere-warming CO2. Solar and wind-powered electric hobs for all then!

Cugel, remembering the stink & damp of the paraffin and bottled-gas stoves of my youth.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

And before anyone jumps on the hydrogen train... because someone will.

Hydrogen is completely unsuitable for domestic heating/cooking - it does have uses, in particular it will make good long term energy storage, because the low round trip efficiency isn't an issue when you are dealing with energy that would otherwise be curtailed.
But obtaining it, and safely transporting it, is not easy.

It's the benzene and other nasties which I am more concerned about than the carbon oxides in this particular case.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
Posts: 24979
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 4:53pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2021, 5:08pm
Jdsk wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 9:58am Interconnects avoid using fossil fuel systems even when total demand is low... area averaging for solar and wind power, and different demand from even small differences in behaviour... massive live sporting events being the exception!

PS: Of course the UK's National Grid is an interconnect...
"It's an interconnect, Jim. but not as we know it!"
https://reneweconomy.com.au/massive-10- ... wer-to-uk/
"‘We’ve lost a year’: political turmoil delays UK-Sahara energy link":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... nergy-link

Image
NB date.

Update on the Morocco-UK interconnect:
https://www.energylivenews.com/2023/10/ ... al-status/
https://electrek.co/2023/10/02/worlds-l ... orocco-uk/

Jonathan
rjb
Posts: 7244
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Electric everything.

Post by rjb »

And the proposed Icelink cable to Iceland will tie us even more into wholesale pricing in exchange for a guaranteed supply. :( :D
We are giving up the chance of being independent of Putin's policies by tieing ourselves to someone else's.
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
Post Reply