Electric everything.

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Stevek76
Posts: 2084
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 4:53pm
"‘We’ve lost a year’: political turmoil delays UK-Sahara energy link":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... nergy-link
There's a thing. Comparing concept level plans to final or being built schemes isn't a great idea in most countries but the UK is particularly bad at building stuff late an overbudget and political instability is a big contributor to that (FPTP mostly, at local and national levels). This sort of undue optimism seems to be partly responsible for most environmentalists/greens irrational opposition to things like HS2 and nuclear.

Not that this project isn't good, but realism is needed about using concept projects to try and delay/derail other things that will actually help. Unless there's change in the UK's political setup (which would at any rate benefit all projects) I'd not be surprised if this slipped further and the estimated strike price ends up being rather optimistic.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
rjb
Posts: 7183
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Electric everything.

Post by rjb »

Those interconnects reduce the risk of blackouts but tie us into paying wholesale prices for our electric. The alternative is to expand our own generation reducing our dependence on European generaters and nationalise the industry so we only pay the cost of production. High energy costs look likely for the foreseeable future. :(
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Biospace »

Stevek76 wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 12:45pm This sort of undue optimism seems to be partly responsible for most environmentalists/greens irrational opposition to things like HS2 and nuclear.
What do you perceive as irrational regarding scepticism of HS2 and nuclear power?

rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 4:56pm Those interconnects reduce the risk of blackouts but tie us into paying wholesale prices for our electric. The alternative is to expand our own generation reducing our dependence on European generaters and nationalise the industry so we only pay the cost of production. High energy costs look likely for the foreseeable future. :(
I agree that continued higher energy costs appear very likely but I'm not sure I understand why grid interconnectors will be a reason.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by roubaixtuesday »

rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 4:56pm Those interconnects reduce the risk of blackouts but tie us into paying wholesale prices for our electric. The alternative is to expand our own generation reducing our dependence on European generaters and nationalise the industry so we only pay the cost of production. High energy costs look likely for the foreseeable future. :(
Widening the pool of suppliers can surely only reduce the cost of energy.
rjb
Posts: 7183
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Electric everything.

Post by rjb »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 7:02pm
rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 4:56pm Those interconnects reduce the risk of blackouts but tie us into paying wholesale prices for our electric. The alternative is to expand our own generation reducing our dependence on European generaters and nationalise the industry so we only pay the cost of production. High energy costs look likely for the foreseeable future. :(
Widening the pool of suppliers can surely only reduce the cost of energy.
National Grid buy all the countries needs at wholesale prices hence the huge profits being made by the sellers which are now being taxed to reflect this. More suppliers don't help unless wholesale prices fall.
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by roubaixtuesday »

rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 7:45pm
National Grid buy all the countries needs at wholesale prices hence the huge profits being made by the sellers which are now being taxed to reflect this. More suppliers don't help unless wholesale prices fall.
OK, but even as far as that's true it's an argument for changing the price structure, not stopping imports.

How are wholesale prices set?
rjb
Posts: 7183
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Electric everything.

Post by rjb »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 7:52pm
rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 7:45pm
National Grid buy all the countries needs at wholesale prices hence the huge profits being made by the sellers which are now being taxed to reflect this. More suppliers don't help unless wholesale prices fall.
OK, but even as far as that's true it's an argument for changing the price structure, not stopping imports.

How are wholesale prices set?
Wholesale prices are set by market forces. Nationalising the industry will allow a new pricing structure. :D
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by roubaixtuesday »

rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 8:08pm

Wholesale prices are set by market forces.
And what effect will brining more suppliers in have on market forces?
rjb
Posts: 7183
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Electric everything.

Post by rjb »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 8:13pm
rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 8:08pm

Wholesale prices are set by market forces.
And what effect will brining more suppliers in have on market forces?
Absolutely nothing. Supply and demand set the price. This is what all the suppliers will charge.
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by roubaixtuesday »

rjb wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 10:16pm Supply and demand set the price...
And if supply increases by bringing in new suppliers...?
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

And of course interconnects become even more important as we move to more inherently intermittent sources.

Jonathan
ANTONISH
Posts: 2955
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by ANTONISH »

Jdsk wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 9:13am And of course interconnects become even more important as we move to more inherently intermittent sources.

Jonathan
They are of course vulnerable to attack by hostile powers - or political change in the "donor" country.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

ANTONISH wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 9:46am
Jdsk wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 9:13am And of course interconnects become even more important as we move to more inherently intermittent sources.
They are of course vulnerable to attack by hostile powers - or political change in the "donor" country.
Yes, they're vulnerable. But are they more vulnerable than the alternatives?

Jonathan

PS: Of course reduced usage isn't vulnerable in the same way. But this bit's about supply.
Stevek76
Posts: 2084
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

Biospace wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 6:37pm What do you perceive as irrational regarding scepticism of HS2 and nuclear power?
Well I largely already covered it. It's a wilful or naive comparison of concept/back of the envelope level plans (i.e. 'reopen the beeching cuts', 'just put more capacity on the WCML' and so on) against a far more advanced plan that is already at outline or detailed design stages where there is a far better grasp on the costs (environmental as well as financial) of something. Search leading green party members and other environmentalist's social media feeds for mentions of 'HS2' (often in association with incorrect figures about ancient woodland) vs the sum of mentions of RIS, bypass, roads and anything else similar.

As for nuclear, the irrationalism there is also seen with the safety aspect and is of much the same form as perception of deaths from e.g. terrorism vs road deaths, or road deaths vs rail/plane crashes, or the treatment of cycling as a particularly high risk activity. Big and/or newsworthy events are assigned a disproportionately large amount of value by the brain's risk aversion setup, probably a reasonable evolution in the past, does not serve us particularly well in the more modern era of 'news'.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Biospace »

Stevek76 wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 11:24am
Biospace wrote: 5 Dec 2022, 6:37pm What do you perceive as irrational regarding scepticism of HS2 and nuclear power?
Well I largely already covered it. It's a wilful or naive comparison of concept/back of the envelope level plans (i.e. 'reopen the beeching cuts', 'just put more capacity on the WCML' and so on) against a far more advanced plan that is already at outline or detailed design stages where there is a far better grasp on the costs (environmental as well as financial) of something. Search leading green party members and other environmentalist's social media feeds for mentions of 'HS2' (often in association with incorrect figures about ancient woodland) vs the sum of mentions of RIS, bypass, roads and anything else similar.

As for nuclear, the irrationalism there is also seen with the safety aspect and is of much the same form as perception of deaths from e.g. terrorism vs road deaths, or road deaths vs rail/plane crashes, or the treatment of cycling as a particularly high risk activity. Big and/or newsworthy events are assigned a disproportionately large amount of value by the brain's risk aversion setup, probably a reasonable evolution in the past, does not serve us particularly well in the more modern era of 'news'.

There's a lot of assumption going on.

Not everyone who looks at HS2 and/or EPR nuclear power and questions the thinking does so from an environmentalist perspective.

Outlined very simply, EPR and EDF for UK means the most expensive electricity, is using a technology the French themselves have not made work as designed and is not likely to come online for another 10-15 years. HS2 for many is the latest and most expensive way of further overheating London and the South East.
Post Reply