Electric everything.

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biketips666
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Joined: 19 Jun 2021, 7:17pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by biketips666 »

ANTONISH wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 4:23pm As is usual this thread took on a life of it's own - mainly about the pro's and con's of electric vehicles.
I started the thread because whatever low carbon solutions will be used for our heating and transport it will inevitably have to come from the electrical supply.
I'm concerned that we are nowhere near being able to supply the large increase in demand that this entails.
I've yet to see any projections as to the likely demand by 2040.

Nor does there seem to be any ambition of the this government or any alternative to provide a solution.
The dithering about Nuclear power has gone on for decades.
From memory, as I'm clearly wasting my time providing references if they at all challenge anybody's preconceptions.

The 3rd round of CfD auctions has finished, and will come on stream in 2023, bringing another 6GW of capacity.
Round 4 is about to start (or bids might be in). I think that is due to produce another 12GW of capacity.

To put that in context, at this precise moment, demand is 34GW, so the new, low carbon electricity produced from the CfD mechanism is significant. The lead time for renewables is relatively short. The CfD 3rd round finished in 2019, and will start producing electricity in 2023, so 4 years from proposal to power. Unlike nuclear, which seems to take forever.

This country has done relatively well in de-carbonising electricity supply.

You're right about nuclear, it seems to be a shambles. And fairly soon there's going to be a dip, as current nuclear power stations go off line, but before Hinkley C starts to produce electricity (in 2026, I think). Bradwell B and Sizewell C are proposed, I don't know how they're going. Though I do remember reading that new nuclear can be built faster, for some reason.

Some of the proposed solutions, like ground source heat pumps, are carbon free, maybe?

It's worth pointing out that some energy use, like petrol engined cars, are notoriously inefficient, as most of the energy is wasted, as heat. I read once, somewhere, that rather than putting a litre of petrol in a car, it would be better to run a generating station with the petrol, and use that to charge electric cars. You'd get more mpg that way than putting it in the tank of an ICE. I know that's a relatively simple and no doubt unfeasible solution. But I daresay the same might apply to diesel generators, which were still used in some remote parts of the UK, up till recently. So the basic principle, using carbon producing energy, but in a more efficient way, might make sense.

I'm relatively sanguine about this. The very wide variety of ways in which electricity can be generated, some carbon free, and especially the increasing use of "smart" grids, which allows a company like EDF to offer electricity at 4.5pence a kWh, makes me think that the "Electric Everything" future is probably feasible.
Last edited by biketips666 on 3 Aug 2021, 6:56pm, edited 2 times in total.
biketips666
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jun 2021, 7:17pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by biketips666 »

Jdsk wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 4:29pm
ANTONISH wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 4:23pmI've yet to see any projections as to the likely demand by 2040.
Screenshot 2021-08-03 at 16.26.49.png

"Updated energy and emissions projections 2019"
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... s-2019.pdf



Screenshot 2021-08-03 at 16.28.50.png

https://www.icaew.com/insights/viewpoin ... rojections

Jonathan
Excellent. And probably worth pointing out that "Net Import" presumably means the Interconnector to France, where most electricity is generated by nuclear power stations, so low carbon. Though I think France might be about to have it's own nuclear power crunch point soon.
biketips666
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jun 2021, 7:17pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by biketips666 »

By the way, if you're interested in electricity generation, and the various sources, Gridwatch has realtime stats on where our electricity is coming from:

https://gridwatch.co.uk/?oldgw=
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

biketips666 wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 6:42pmThough I do remember reading that new nuclear can be built faster, for some reason.
As always lots of new models being promoted... including sodium-cooled fast reactors such as Natrium:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-co ... st_reactor

But was that about this:
https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/3-wa ... able-build

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

biketips666 wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 7:01pm By the way, if you're interested in electricity generation, and the various sources, Gridwatch has realtime stats on where our electricity is coming from:

https://gridwatch.co.uk/?oldgw=
Neat, isn't it?

Jonathan
Jules59
Posts: 484
Joined: 16 Jan 2019, 2:34pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jules59 »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDjgSSO98VI

News to me; Iron-air batteries for energy storage to cope with variable energy production of many renewables.
Manc33
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015, 9:37pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Manc33 »

axel_knutt wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 6:30pmElectric cars can be charged at night, when there's bags of surplus capacity.
Not if everyone's charging their car at night (fast forwarding 30 years) :P
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by al_yrpal »

Where I live the whole area is crammed with new housing estates spawning hundreds of nice looking little houses with almost microscopic gardens. No escape from the fact that most gardens are overlooked.

a. No realistic prospect of ground source heat pumps.

b. The prospect of dozens of air source heat pump fans all whirrring away all around would drive me bananas!

Al
Reuse, recycle, to save the planet.... Auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Boots. Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can...... Every little helps!
francovendee
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Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Electric everything.

Post by francovendee »

Earlier this year we stayed at house where the neighbour had an air source heat pump. On our last day he switched it on, It wasn't a noise I'd want to have live with and we were over 30 metres away. Even with the window mostly closed you could still hear it.
biketips666
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jun 2021, 7:17pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by biketips666 »

al_yrpal wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:14am Where I live the whole area is crammed with new housing estates spawning hundreds of nice looking little houses with almost microscopic gardens. No escape from the fact that most gardens are overlooked.

a. No realistic prospect of ground source heat pumps.

b. The prospect of dozens of air source heat pump fans all whirrring away all around would drive me bananas!

Al
Some technologies are more appropriate in some environments than in others. We have a large garden, as do all our neighbours. Vertical ground source head pumps are also available, at greater cost.

https://www.yesenergysolutions.co.uk/ad ... mp-systems
francovendee
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by francovendee »

Are there plans to import more electricity from France?
We've friends who live at Lee on Solent and they tell me there is work going on bringing cables ashore there.
biketips666
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jun 2021, 7:17pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by biketips666 »

francovendee wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:45am Are there plans to import more electricity from France?
We've friends who live at Lee on Solent and they tell me there is work going on bringing cables ashore there.
We already do. At this exact moment in time 10% of our electricity, 3GW, is coming via the two French interconnects:

https://gridwatch.co.uk/?oldgw=
or the new version:
https://gridwatch.co.uk/

Plus 3% from the Netherlands. Plus another 3% from Belgium. Though we seem to be sending a bit to Ireland, at 8:52 this morning.

The work your friends are observing might be work on the existing Caen-Portsmouth interconnect.

Edit. My apologies. You said "more" didn't you? Still, I'll leave my post up, it might be informative for some people. It's interesting that we're importing 16% of our electricity at the moment.

I think the IFA2 only just starting working:

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/uks ... ngineering so maybe that's what your friends are seeing, if it's only recently been implemented.

A quick Google doesn't bring up any plans for a new interconnect to France, but there does seem to be work happening on one to Denmark:

https://www.nationalgrid.com/our-busine ... ner-future
Last edited by biketips666 on 4 Aug 2021, 9:09am, edited 2 times in total.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

biketips666 wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:48am
francovendee wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:45am Are there plans to import more electricity from France?
We've friends who live at Lee on Solent and they tell me there is work going on bringing cables ashore there.
We already do. At this exact moment in time 10% of our electricity, 3GW, is coming via the two French interconnects...
If anyone isn't familiar with the maths of interconnects... their effect on load balancing is bigger than it looks it's when it as been expressed as a fraction of total generation. A bit of load balancing on those sustainable but intermittent sources makes a big difference.

Jonathan
biketips666
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jun 2021, 7:17pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by biketips666 »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 9:08am
biketips666 wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:48am
francovendee wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:45am Are there plans to import more electricity from France?
We've friends who live at Lee on Solent and they tell me there is work going on bringing cables ashore there.
We already do. At this exact moment in time 10% of our electricity, 3GW, is coming via the two French interconnects...
If anyone isn't familiar with the maths of interconnects... their effect on load balancing is bigger than it looks it's when it as been expressed as a fraction of total generation. A bit of load balancing on those sustainable but intermittent sources makes a big difference.

Jonathan
I'd like to see some of that maths please.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

biketips666 wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:43am
al_yrpal wrote: 4 Aug 2021, 8:14am Where I live the whole area is crammed with new housing estates spawning hundreds of nice looking little houses with almost microscopic gardens. No escape from the fact that most gardens are overlooked.

a. No realistic prospect of ground source heat pumps.

b. The prospect of dozens of air source heat pump fans all whirrring away all around would drive me bananas!
Some technologies are more appropriate in some environments than in others. We have a large garden, as do all our neighbours. Vertical ground source head pumps are also available, at greater cost.

https://www.yesenergysolutions.co.uk/ad ... mp-systems
Those new build housing estates are often a perfect opportunity for communal systems, which might include ground source heat pumps. The trick is to make the switch of thinking away from individual houses. As with sewage treatment...

And of course much higher insulation standards would make an enormous difference.

Jonathan
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