Changes in transport costs.

[Jdsk]

Many people think themselves capable of driving after three beers.

There is lots of evidence to the contrary.

If I had to pick one recreational drug where the opinions of the user on their performance after taking it were likely to be wrong it would be ethanol.

Jonathan

[Bmblbzzz]

That's strange: I live 5 miles out of town and my bike is as fast as my car into town. It's quicker door-to-door because bike parking is closer than available car parking, especially after the 9-5ers have taken the best free/cheap spaces.

We live in different places or you are a faster cyclist.

Yeah, I'm almost certainly not faster but I'm pretty sure you don't live with me

My car is faster than my bike almost all journeys. If parking was an issue I wouldn't go here. Others seem to have similar views hence the decline of city centre shopping and the growth of out of town shopping with free parking and good road access.

I think that's more driven by town centre rents and rates being so much higher per square metre than the retail barn wastelands, meaning the barns are not paying full whack for maintaining the extra-wide roads to them or the damage done by their car parks, plus shops have to be a certain size to occupy one of the barns, as few people walk between shops because that means walking across vast car parks and crossing the 4/5/6/7/8/9-lane road between them.

I doubt this is being driven by customer views more than shop and road/parking space supply. I've not heard anyone say they actually like visiting the megahypermart zone since the novelty of the first ones opening years ago. More often people say they have to go there because there are no longer enough shops in town to supply everything they need/want, plus the councils have failed to get a grip on congestion (still trying to build their way out of it) so it takes motorists longer to get to the town centre than the time saved by using smaller shops, plus there's then the perverse incentive of council-owned pay car parks.

Ironically, I ride through Lynn's main megahypermart zone to go shopping in town, unless I need one of the 3 things I've not found elsewhere recently. The 10 minutes from there into town plus the time spent walking around (OK, limping around!) is less than the time taken moving even a bike from road to shop to shop (...to shop...) to road. Moving a car (which has to stop at the lights and cannot use the crossings or more direct routes) would be even slower, but driving into town from there and parking and walking would probably be slower too, so drivers tolerate it.

Oh well, at least there's cycleways through it! Roll on business property tax reforms!

Evidence of this might be the popularity of internet shopping. It's not driven solely by the pandemic or even lower prices, many people just don't want to travel to and spend time in, the shopping centre environment. Equally, there are of course many who view it as an enjoyable recreational and social activity.

[Stevek76]

Also you're considering the car like it's the best option. It isn't, even now, cycling is objectively the best option in urban areas at most times of day, it's faster, much cheaper, makes you healthier & happier. The main barrier is the subjective lack of safety from having to share with motor vehicles. Hardly anyone actually likes driving in urban areas!

Strange that the vast majority of people don't choose the faster option that makes them happy.

Well as I mentioned, safety (or discomfort if that works better, even for many of us who are confident at cycling in traffic, it's rarely a pleasant experience). There's a big difference between actual concrete measures and perceived utility, cycling suffers badly in the latter while cars tend to be oddly tempting, even when they're the dafter choice (I still succumb to this on occasion, I normally regret it), that that choice gets to externalise a bunch of its costs on to everyone else doesn't help.

Depends how you define urban. Congested city centres perhaps. Any further out and the car is king. Arrives when you want any time of day. I waited 40m for a bus last week. Buses are free for me but I still choose my car 99% of the time. AS I was going for a few beers it was bus or bike. Bus won as I didn't want to risk parking my bike in Glasgow city centre for a few hours at night. I currently only have good bikes, no pub bike.

I was including most suburbs, the average speed across most cities is usually in the low teens across most times of the day. i.e. similar to a relatively relaxed cycle. Glasgow is unusually sprawly and undense for a UK city so may be a bit different here.

A bike is no use for carrying dogs or large amounts of shopping.

The internet would disagree More seriously, how do you think those who don't own cars manage?

A bike doesn't keep you dry on wet days.

Nor do cars between the car and the final destination, people tend to use coats for that, they work on bikes too.

As I don't work 9-5 my car is faster than my bike for any journey longer than 2 or 3 miles or so.

For work. I work at several locations. One is 20 miles away. By car 30 minutes. Bike 90 minutes (by the fastest route with some suicidal 70mph dual carriageway). Public transport can't be done because of my shift times. The closest place is 8 miles away. I have biked there. But as I have no locker and have to carry a change of clothes and towel etc the car wins most of the time. There is over 100 NHS employees. The bike rack is normally empty.

8 miles+ is a minority of commutes, 20miles is a tiny proportion, they're not really the sort of trips being looked at.

One of my colleagues, a GP, lives closer than me. 3 miles perhaps. He jogs several times a week. Plays 5 a side. Cycles recreationally. He never cycles to work.

This, however, is the problem in a nutshell really, not helped by the presumably free parking at the destination despite the poor facilities for those using other modes. Subsidising car use but not public transport?

I have no stats but my impression is that post lockdown there are no more commuter cyclists in Glasgow than before and the extra cycle lanes see little use. Not helped by their poor quality but that is another debate.

I think it's the key point actually, if the environment is as hostile as before then of course there won't be any change. also there is an element of hysteresis to behaviour change which is another reason carrots aren't enough and a few sticks are needed for car driving.

[Stevek76]

Re drunk cycling, guilty. There's a massive chasm between the potential for harm of a drunk cyclist, which as with a sober cyclist, is little different to that posed by someone running (which drunk people also do) and that of a drunk driver operating heavy machinery with orders of magnitude greater kinetic energy & momentum.

[Carlton green]

“A bike is no use for carrying dogs or large amounts of shopping.”

Versus

“The internet would disagree More seriously, how do you think those who don't own cars manage?”

IMHO there’s truth in both camps there. It’s surprising what you can shift on the rear rack of a bike but it has limitations, an extra rack at the front helps and so does a trailer (moved dog and shopping on mine). I’ve always fancied having a proper Cargo Bike, but they tend to be heavy and can take some peddling - that could be and often is a separate topic. How do “those that don’t own cars manage?” Sadly I’ve seen people, pedestrians in particular, really struggle and be ground down by their situation. My parents suffered through lack of transport and at times it really was horridly grinding and life limiting for them and for their children.

Edit. When I get old(er) and can no longer cycle I shall use a shopping trolley and endeavour not to be overly concerned about what other folk might think. Sometimes I use a backpack to shift my shopping on foot, at the moment I can carry quite a lot that way and it’s also far easier than carrying large shopping bags - I’m puzzled as to why more people don’t use backpacks and as to why it took me so long to adopt the idea. Perhaps moving your shopping with a backpack might also be considered ‘eccentric’, again I’ll endeavour not to be overly concerned about what other folk might think.

[Bmblbzzz]

Dogpacking has been a thing since, well, long before the term was invented. Here's a relatively late (ie recent) guide: https://bikepacking.com/plan/dogpacking/
That's for the adventure type...

[Carlton green]

Cycling for Utility rather than Leisure seems to me to be a neglected use of the Bicycle. Once it was very different with those that had the strength and the money purposefully using bikes to get themselves from place to place rather than some recreational/sporting jaunt.

[Bmblbzzz]

Yes, but there has over the course of the last decade or two been a gradual boom in utility cycling, and increasing popularity of cycle types made specifically for this purpose, such as box bikes (Bakfiets) and various other cargo bikes.

[Carlton green]

Yes, but there has over the course of the last decade or two been a gradual boom in utility cycling, and increasing popularity of cycle types made specifically for this purpose, such as box bikes (Bakfiets) and various other cargo bikes.

Whenever I go out on my bike it is rare to see anything but racing and fast day touring bikes. I really can’t remember the last time I saw a simple utility bike or cargo bike and likewise a bike plus trailer. I'm a convert to the SA AW hub and again they have become a rare sight too - I’m delighted with mine but you do have to customise the bike gearing to be just right for your own needs ...

Here’s a suggested change in transport costs. I’m of the opinion that VAT shouldn’t charged on utility bikes (including cargo bikes) and perhaps their spare parts too, they aren’t luxury items and making them cheaper would make it that little bit easier to get people cycling. What’s a utility bike? Well that’s a bit arbitrary but as a first definition it would be variations on the British Roadster, so full size and fat-ish tyres, steel frame, rear rack, mudguards, rim brakes and five gears or less - drop handlebars are an acceptable deviation and likewise alloy components an acceptable modernisation, more gears allowed for cargo bikes.

[Bmblbzzz]

I like your VAT idea though I expect it would be hard to reach a legally acceptable definition (I think yours is too restrictive). Cargo bikes are expensive – I think a Tern GSD with e-assist costs at least £3k up to more than £5k – and a reduction in or exemption from VAT would make a big difference at those levels. Even at more modest utility bike prices, it's still worth doing. I'd apply the reduction to components and workshop labour while we're at it.

[Stevek76]

How do “those that don’t own cars manage?” Sadly I’ve seen people, pedestrians in particular, really struggle and be ground down by their situation. My parents suffered through lack of transport and at times it really was horridly grinding and life limiting for them and for their children.

Yes, I was sort of getting at that. It's one of the reasons I have quite strong opinions on the need to manage down car dependency. It's all too easy for those who own cars (i.e. almost all politicians) to think everyone has access to one. A significant minority have no, or highly limited access to one and in a car dependent society that is highly exclusionary. There are some around who show what can be done by bike but with the roads as is that's simply not an option for most.

Whenever I go out on my bike it is rare to see anything but racing and fast day touring bikes. I really can’t remember the last time I saw a simple utility bike or cargo bike and likewise a bike plus trailer.

Varies massively across the UK. Largely localised to areas actually doing the kind of things I keep grumbling about!

And agreed there should probably be some sort of grant for cargos and/or e-assist. The dft will normally point at the various cycle to work schemes in response but those are not ideal as due to limited to employees. Limiting to utility bikes will be awkward. Not as simple as the car EV grant where a price cutoff is effective at broadly excluding the luxury items, with bikes an e-assist cargo can easily be in the same price bracket as an entirely unsuitable for transport eMTB

[[XAP]Bob]

I like your VAT idea though I expect it would be hard to reach a legally acceptable definition (I think yours is too restrictive). Cargo bikes are expensive – I think a Tern GSD with e-assist costs at least £3k up to more than £5k – and a reduction in or exemption from VAT would make a big difference at those levels. Even at more modest utility bike prices, it's still worth doing. I'd apply the reduction to components and workshop labour while we're at it.

I'd not bother with a limiting value - drop to 5% all round and then it's just not an issue.

[Bmblbzzz]

I don't think anyone's proposed a limiting value. Carlton Green suggested reducing VAT on utility bikes, for which he proposed a definition which to me seems rather restrictive; it would, for instance, exclude cargo bikes. I'd say just zero-rate all pedal cycles, with a low rate for EAPCs and e-scooters, or maybe zero for them too. AIUI it's more advantageous to be zero-rated than exempt, as 0% still allows to claim back the VAT paid at an earlier stage (eg on the metal tubing that went to make the frame) whereas exemption does not.

[[XAP]Bob]

Hadn't parsed the utility bike concept.

I don't think it's worth making any division, many people commute on what could easily be described as a racing bike...

[Jdsk]

The Mayor of London on road pricing:
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... ays-mayor/

Jonathan