Plymouth

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Mick F
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Mick F »

thirdcrank wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 10:42am Set up a Firearms Licensing Authority to do the job and take it out of the hands of dolts like me. Make it self-financing from the licence fees and in no time at all, few licensed weapons would be in private hands.
This sounds eminently sensible.

Why are the police in charge of firearms licensing?
Is it just historical?

If they were to invent firearms licenses now, they wouldn't get the police to do it.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 12:02pm
thirdcrank wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 10:42am Set up a Firearms Licensing Authority to do the job and take it out of the hands of dolts like me. Make it self-financing from the licence fees and in no time at all, few licensed weapons would be in private hands.
This sounds eminently sensible.

Why are the police in charge of firearms licensing?
Is it just historical?

If they were to invent firearms licenses now, they wouldn't get the police to do it.
The history... police and Post Office:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_ ... ed_Kingdom

Jonathan
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Re: Plymouth

Post by slowster »

Zulu Eleven wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 11:41am There’s a lot of assumptions there - eg. Seizure is often routine after allegations (so no ‘serious enough to’) and normally voluntary rather than as a result of formal revocation while allegations are investigated, and of course not all allegations are true, plus there are legal defences to allegations of assault (eg. Self defence) and we don’t know if the anger management was something done voluntarily in order to demonstrate/pacify the Licencing people
I agree that unsubstantiated allegations need to be treated with great caution. Nevertheless, if the evidence is considered to meet the threshold of a balance of probabilities (i.e. the civil standard standard of proof, rather than the higher criminal standard), that should be sufficient for a licence to be revoked. And it isn't even necessarily a question of whether or not an actual offence was committed: if someone exhibits a lack of self-control in circumstances such as a confrontation, that in itself is evidence that they are not fit to hold a gun licence.

Whoever proposed the anger management course, I don't think that the police/Firearms Licensing Manager should have placed reliance on it, which it appears they did according to the reports in the media.
Zulu Eleven
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Zulu Eleven »

slowster wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 12:23pm
Zulu Eleven wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 11:41am There’s a lot of assumptions there - eg. Seizure is often routine after allegations (so no ‘serious enough to’) and normally voluntary rather than as a result of formal revocation while allegations are investigated, and of course not all allegations are true, plus there are legal defences to allegations of assault (eg. Self defence) and we don’t know if the anger management was something done voluntarily in order to demonstrate/pacify the Licencing people
I agree that unsubstantiated allegations need to be treated with great caution. Nevertheless, if the evidence is considered to meet the threshold of a balance of probabilities (i.e. the civil standard standard of proof, rather than the higher criminal standard), that should be sufficient for a licence to be revoked. And it isn't even necessarily a question of whether or not an actual offence was committed: if someone exhibits a lack of self-control in circumstances such as a confrontation, that in itself is evidence that they are not fit to hold a gun licence.

Whoever proposed the anger management course, I don't think that the police/Firearms Licensing Manager should have placed reliance on it, which it appears they did according to the reports in the media.
As I say, already the case - cases of all sorts down the years, eg people losing their certificate after GP reported alcoholism, or after being done for drink driving - both taken to indicate risk and reckless attitude.

I think a lot of the problem can actually be put down to the increasing centralisation of the police, and the increasing centralisation of firearms certification within the police. Once upon a time the villlage Bobby/local plod knew the local characters and their opinion and local knowledge was the primary source of intelligence - they were in an ideal position to judge applicants - take that to the nineties and the local polices serious concerns over Hamilton were ignored (rumours of funny handshakes abound), leading us to Dunblane. What knowledge and involvement do local officers have in the process now? Almost none.

By the way, regards the whole ‘incel’ thing. I was reminded earlier of a statement made after Hungerford, that “matricide is the schizophrenic crime." Might bear some analysis.
Stevek76
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Stevek76 »

Psamathe wrote: 15 Aug 2021, 8:07pm Put a 0 (before the decimal point) on the end of the cost of a firearms license. It's not a fundamental human right so charge (even make a profit) on thorough processing of applications.

Ian
People do boatloads of things that aren't fundamental human rights that cost society money. Think it's worth being careful not to be hypocritical on matters of what the state should and shouldn't fund.

This seems rather common to be across the political spectrum. From those who supposedly desire low taxes but are more than happy for the government to eg spend on roads (and the externalised costs of the subsequent motoring) to those favouring high tax & spend who seem to have it in for hobbies they don't identify with (golf, shooting etc).
simonineaston wrote: 15 Aug 2021, 3:21pm However, as I’ve already suggested, I wonder whether the stresses applied to the associated agencies by steadily reduced funding will be taken into account - this factor may turn out to be key. The same pressure from reduced funding is of course wide-spread and continues. If I’m right, the same factor will crop up again and again as more and more mistakes are inevitably made by over-worked and under-skilled staff, across all sorts of government agencies. The difficulties with DVLA, for example have been discussed recently on this forum.
Agreed on this & mental health funding. We've had a government for the last decade+ that's talked tough on crime but neither funded the justice system sufficiently to actually be tough on crime and has zero interest in being tough (i.e. proactive) on the causes of crime.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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al_yrpal
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Re: Plymouth

Post by al_yrpal »

My wifes friend and collegue Sue was the Hungerford killers first victim simply picknicking in the woods with her daughter. Another madman.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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simonineaston
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Re: Plymouth

Post by simonineaston »

We've had a government for the last decade+ that's talked tough
It's a deep sadness to me that such a huge proportion of the electorate are taken in time and time again, by the deceitful & disengenuous promises that our politicians make, over & over again - when will we learn?
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Oldjohnw
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Oldjohnw »

When I first got involved in Prison and CJ reform Labour were in power. They spoke nicely but mostly did little apart from a few enlightened moments in an otherwise bleak journey. David Blunkett and Jack Straw then got involved? We used to say then that the Daily Mail set the agenda and the two main political parties were in a bizarre arms war as they tried to out-tough each other.

It seems that nothing much has changed.
John
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Re: Plymouth

Post by slowster »

Zulu Eleven wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 1:02pm As I say, already the case
But not the case in this case, at least that is what seems likely based on what has been reported so far. And if it is confirmed that the benefit of the doubt has been given so inappropriately in this case, it will almost certainly also have been given inappropriately in many other cases.
Debs
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Debs »

Zulu Eleven wrote: 16 Aug 2021, 9:52am
It seems strange rather than interesting. It sets forth on the presumption because he was an ‘incel’ and ‘misogynist’ his crime was motivated by this - except his victims appear to be his two adult females (one his mother) two adult males and a child. Which simply doesn’t fit the premise, does it?
What presumption?
His social media history was found to be stuffed full of incel activity. Jake Davison was a bona fide and dedicated 24 carat misogynist.
They not only hate women, but hate men who are able to form loving and decent relationships with women.
His actions fit the premise exactly.
peetee
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Re: Plymouth

Post by peetee »

I have had some experience of using firearms. As a teenager I was a Forces Cadet and used .303 rifles on outdoor ranges. The discipline was strict and the tutors keen to ensure we retained a degree of fear of the weapon and treated it with utmost respect.
About ten years ago I was invited to a clay pigeon shoot and, despite looking forward to doing well, that forces training was not forgotten. What did surprise me was the effect using that shotgun had on me. I had set out to be totally composed, responsible and focussed on getting the best score possible against my friend who was a long-time clay shooter. Nevertheless, handling that gun started to make me feel rather above myself and I was a bit beguiled by the power of the thing in much the same way I would imaging driving a high-performance car would. Frankly as one who has never so much as raised a threatening hand to another, I hated myself for that, still do, but it made it very easy to understand the effect these objects have on some people and why tight, broad-ranging criminal, medical and digital media history checks should be carried out on potential and existing firearms licence holders.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Tangled Metal »

I think someone made the point that people use guns for work too and making it a too difficult process to get a licence will affect their job prospects (roughly paraphrased I think). I wonder how much of an argument that is.

Getting a licence costs the applicant and the police vetting them. If resources aren't allowing correct decision and vetting then it needs more money. Non shooters should not pay for that imho. So if it's a work requirement surely the employer needs to cover the costs. It happens in other areas. We're a manufacturer and we need first aiders. The company pays for a recognised c course for its first aiders. It's a basic work expense for the company and aiui can be claimed against tax as a business expense.

I do not see how firearm or shotgun licence for work isn't a business expense and thus if it needs to increase in price for resources reasons then businesses shouldn't pay it.

Even if for leisure the argument against covering costs is simply wrong. If you cannot afford your hobby get another hobby. There's enough hobbies I'd like to try but can't afford. With shooting there's a added public safety issue going on here.

I think the whole licence system should be rebuilt from first principles and fully costed out according to what is really needed to keep the public safe. I do not think the system is too far from acceptable.
merseymouth
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Re: Plymouth

Post by merseymouth »

]Morning, A full overhaul of the possession & licencing of firearms & shotguns will invariably be a rocky and difficult road!
The volume of such weapons is very difficult to quantify, with a countless number of inherited weapons, so who knows where the things will be and just as scary who will next get hands on them?
I think I read it way back that a large number of such get filched in burglaries, maybe more than on record due to reluctance on the part of the victim to admit to having had it in the first place?
So we're on the back foot from the outset!
One thing must be put in place which I've already been told is not workable, that is that the Registration & Licencing process must record all weapons held! I believe that it is just so with regards to rifles & hand-guns, but surely it should be possible for shotguns?
If cost is an element which impedes it, well tough, the one who wants the weapon must pay.
But I'm told shotguns are essential for controlling vermin, well one of the worst vermin which plagues society in the human one! So human variant must not be free to have access to what quickly become offensive weapons.
I accept that the majority of people who use shotguns in a purely professional basis are doing it properly, but even among forum posters we get told of some of the careless type! The job of ensuring we have a society which is safe for all should not be left in the hands of folk such as our version of the NRA.
We make efforts to control the most popular offensive weapon, the motor-vehicle, with proper training and control, but even then we see numerous instances of carnage! The weapons access must be taken into proper control. MM

Please excuse the excessive underlining, beyond my skill set.
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Hellhound
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Hellhound »

merseymouth wrote: 17 Aug 2021, 8:48am Morning, A full overhaul of the possession & licencing of firearms & shotguns will invariably be a rocky and difficult road!
The volume of such weapons is very difficult to quantify, with a countless number of inherited weapons, so who knows where the things will be and just as scary who will next get hands on them?
I think I read it way back that a large number of such get filched in burglaries, maybe more than on record due to reluctance on the part of the victim to admit to having had it in the first place?
So we're on the back foot from the outset!
One thing must be put in place which I've already been told is not workable, that is that the Registration & Licencing process must record all weapons held! I believe that it is just so with regards to rifles & hand-guns, but surely it should be possible for shotguns?
If cost is an element which impedes it, well tough, the one who wants the weapon must pay.
But I'm told shotguns are essential for controlling vermin, well one of the worst vermin which plagues society in the human one! So human variant must not be free to have access to what quickly become offensive weapons.
I accept that the majority of people who use shotguns in a purely professional basis are doing it properly, but even among forum posters we get told of some of the careless type! The job of ensuring we have a society which is safe for all should not be left in the hands of folk such as our version of the NRA.
We make efforts to control the most popular offensive weapon, the motor-vehicle, with proper training and control, but even then we see numerous instances of carnage! The weapons access must be taken into proper control. MM
Please excuse the excessive underlining, beyond my skill set.
There you go MM :wink:
Jdsk
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Re: Plymouth

Post by Jdsk »

IOPC: "Update on investigation into Devon and Cornwall Police decision making over Jake Davison’s possession of a shotgun and certificate":
https://policeconduct.gov.uk/news/updat ... possession

Admirable and unusual transparency.

Includes acceptance of the coroner's request.

Jonathan
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