Tongsheng TSDZ2

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
hemo
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by hemo »

With regards to Woosh apart from the BPM rear kit it is the only 350w motor/kit they sell now, all other are marked 250w.
I believe the 48v /250w Tdzs they sell has the current limited compared to the 48v 350/500w models sold.

Buying the Tdzs isn't an issue it just depends if one wants one that complies legally with a factory mark or one that doesn't.
If one wants one marked 250w then it is likely to cost more from a UK source.
iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

hemo wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 10:37am With regards to Woosh apart from the BPM rear kit it is the only 350w motor/kit they sell now, all other are marked 250w.
I believe the 48v /250w Tdzs they sell has the current limited compared to the 48v 350/500w models sold.

Buying the Tdzs isn't an issue it just depends if one wants one that complies legally with a factory mark or one that doesn't.
If one wants one marked 250w then it is likely to cost more from a UK source.
I would add that IMO it is potentially very risky fitting an electric assist that doesn't comply with UK law for reasons already stated.
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bikes4two
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by bikes4two »

iandusud wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 4:27pm
I would add that IMO it is potentially very risky fitting an electric assist that doesn't comply with UK law for reasons already stated.

  • I respect your opinion of course - we all have one.
  • However, it would be very useful for those who are maybe new to the question of '250w' etc (and bear in mind that that parameter in EN 15194 Section 4.2.14 uses the term 'maximum continuous rated power' without going into or mentioning what peaks of power are acceptable), to give some information to support your view that the matter is 'very risky'.
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stodd
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by stodd »

The 250w rule is most peculiar; what seems to matter is what is embossed on the motor regardless of its real characteristics.

All the evidence so far is that breaking the rule is hardly risky at all. Even cyclists (motor-cyclists really) who clearly broke the rules by significant margins and rode very dangerously as well seem to have got off almost scott-free.

There remain two big risks.
(1) If you are involved in an accident and they choose to throw the book at you there is potential for huge penalties.
(2) They may decide to tighten up on enforcement (and personally I hope they do (***)), leading to problems even for safe riders with illegal bikes.

(***) but first clamp down on illegal scooters
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bikes4two
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by bikes4two »

stodd wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 8:56pm The 250w rule is most peculiar;
How right you are!
They may decide to tighten up on enforcement (and personally I hope they do (***)),
+1 for that.

Should you have a problem sleeping, have a read through EN15194 (PDF versions can be got for free via a Google search) and see the test methods required to establish motor power output and then you can see how difficult it would be for any enforcement agency to replicate that to prove an offence had been committed.

However, testing for the 25Km/hr powered speed limit is very easy - you'd just ride the bike! Ditto ensuring the ebike is pedal assisted only.

The fact that these are easy, practical tests for a police officer to perform but as far as I can tell, ARE NOT DONE, makes you realise that in all practical terms, the political will and/or police resource is not there.
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
hemo
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by hemo »

The UK Gov web page is incorrect and the 250w error of ( 250w max continuous power ) hasn't been updated since it was first placed on there, it then goes on to mention EN15194. EN15194 is about motor W rating and not /peak wattage output.
The bosh and yamaha jobbies out put nearly 800w peak power.

One of the grandees on pedelecs even wrote to the DFT regarding the error and received a reply pointing out the wording was indeed incorrect and spurious, yet it has never been changed. So even the DFT can't get it right and yet they are the ones who set out the regulations.
Slowtwitch
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by Slowtwitch »

I think these ratings will never be tested in reality, and as the ebike world matures and evolves so will the law and regulations. Most of my friends are riding de-restricted bikes, many of whom are happy tootling along at 40km/h

I recently converted a bike for my dad with a Bafang central mounted unit, which although it said 250w on the tin, was definitely more like 800 in use. I was tempted to unrestrict it, but my old man is dangerous enough as is :lol:

Though I can see the temptation for many who wish to do so. Our LBS does a good trade in it so I'm told. Two categories of ebike users perhaps? One requiring formal training maybe? Like drone pilots. I'd be all for that.
iandusud
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by iandusud »

stodd wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 8:56pm The 250w rule is most peculiar; what seems to matter is what is embossed on the motor regardless of its real characteristics.

All the evidence so far is that breaking the rule is hardly risky at all. Even cyclists (motor-cyclists really) who clearly broke the rules by significant margins and rode very dangerously as well seem to have got off almost scott-free.

There remain two big risks.
(1) If you are involved in an accident and they choose to throw the book at you there is potential for huge penalties.
(2) They may decide to tighten up on enforcement (and personally I hope they do (***)), leading to problems even for safe riders with illegal bikes.

(***) but first clamp down on illegal scooters

I totally agree with all of the above but the biggest risk by far is your point 1.
pete75
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by pete75 »

There are many adverts like this on Ebay selling 250w CE labels. If the motor has the right label stuck on would the police or anyone else bother to check the actual power output?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284276902908 ... SwEvVgixSx
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
hemo
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by hemo »

Sticking a CE label on might work if the unit doesn't isn't etched with a different rating, it wouldn't take much on closer inspection to peel it off to see if it obscures the real beast with in.
pete75
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by pete75 »

All the ones I've seen have a stuck on label or none at all. My TSDZ2 actually came with the label in the box to be stuck on.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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bikes4two
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by bikes4two »

If the motor has the right label stuck on would the police or anyone else bother to check the actual power output?
That's a mute point really in that the tools and equipment needed to check 'continuous power' could likely only be found in a specially equiped workshop.

Given that I've not as yet read of any accounts of ebikes even being checked for the motor cut-off speed and pedal assist function (these are minimal checks easily done - but they aren't), let alone road-side motor power output checks?
All the ones I've seen have a stuck on label or none at all. My TSDZ2 actually came with the label in the box to be stuck on.
The labels on the four TSDZ2 I've fitted this month only state the voltage and RPM (36v, 4000 RPM)
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jb
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by jb »

A lot of these regs. are only there so if your out causing a nuisance or damaging property or killing someone, then if your bike checks out to be illegal the law has the power to punish you. If you use the extra assistance responsibly no one is interested.
There can be a problem only if your cycling responsibly but are still involved in an incident, especially if insurance is involved.

A lot of things we used to stick on our souped up teenage bangers probably fell into the same category, especially bonnet clips.
Cheers
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hemo
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by hemo »

Issue with cycling is that as the rider, one will likely be the innocent party in an accident and with an illegal drive motor one may then be deemed as the cause. What if he didn't have a over powered motor. what if he wasn't riding so fast etc,etc.
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bikes4two
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2

Post by bikes4two »

hemo wrote: 2 Nov 2021, 11:38am Issue with cycling is that as the rider, one will likely be the innocent party in an accident and with an illegal drive motor one may then be deemed as the cause. What if he didn't have a over powered motor. what if he wasn't riding so fast etc,etc.
Do you or anyone else have examples of cyclists in the UK getting into trouble due to:
  • electrical assist above the 25kph limit
  • motor power above the 250w
I ask this as the prospect of falling foul of the law is so very often forecast but I'm having real difficulty in finding actual cases.

A compendium of such cases would be useful to have which could in turn be made more public to discourage law breakers.
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
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