Tongsheng TSDZ2

[bikes4two]

EDITED A few days after original posting to add more detail.

I don't care at all about where you got your motor from, I really don't, but if you've bought a motor with that labelling, then there might be others looking for the same or similar.

However, by mentioning what was on your motor label there was an implication that your motor was compliant with UK law. What I took was the opportunity to point out is that the label means very little - it is just that, a label.

The pedelec uk forum does state in this link here that:

Plating

Since 6th April 2015, manufacturer’s plates should show the maximum assisted cut­-off speed, in addition to the previous requirements of manufacturer name, battery voltage and maximum continuous rated power.

In the same forum, Woosh (of Woosh bikes in Southend) has commented on numerous occasions about their labelling regime on the motor/kits they sell, and thus I was wondering if you'd bought from them?

However, the forum's definition of labelling and what EN15194 says (EN15194 was primarily written for new pedelecs or EPACs and not kit conversions), would appear to not be fully in tune with each other - the following is an extract reagarding labelling which might be pertinent to a kit (but is not clear):

5 Marking, labelling
5.1 Requirement
The EPAC shall be marked visibly, legibly and indelibly with the following minimum particulars:
— contact and address of the manufacturer or authorized representative;
— EPAC according to EN 15194;
— appropriate marking required by legislation (CE);
— year of construction, that is the year in which the manufacturing was completed (it is not possible
to use a code);
— cut off speed XX km/h;
— maximum continuous rated power XX kW;
— maximum permissible total weight (e.g. marked near the seat post or handlebar);
— designation of series or type;
— individual serial number if any;

Further, in an earlier section of the EN, there's a bit about Anti tampering, and these measures are most definitely NOT enforced in the TSDZ2:
4.2.17 Anti-tampering measure
4.2.17.1 General
Anti-tampering measures apply to tampering or modifications that general consumers carry out
concerning the control unit, drive unit or other parts of power assisting system by using commercially
available tools, equipment or parts.
4.2.17.2 Prevention of tampering of the motor
The following anti-tampering requirements shall be taken into account:
a) Anti-tampering relevant parameters indicated below shall only be accessible to the manufacturer
or authorized persons and changes of software configuration parameters require programming
tools that are not commercially available or security protected:
1) maximum speed with motor assistance (all systems),
2) parameters affecting the maximum vehicle speed limited by design,
3) maximum gear ratio (system with middle motors),
4) maximum motor power (all systems),
5) maximum speed of starting up assistance;

Now given that the TSDZ2 is very configurable by those with simple 'tools', a label declaring that the motor is EN15194 compliant needs to be treated with some scepticism.

The tone of your response indicates that I've annoyed you - my apologies if I have but this is an open forum for folks to share their views and to bring balance to any discussion and I hope that I have done that.

You are free to believe what you do, as am I.

Happy ebiking

[pete75]

EDITED A few days after original posting to add more detail.

I don't care at all about where you got your motor from, I really don't,

So why ask?

Let's look at some simple arithmatic here:
> 250w from a nominal 36v battery gives a battery current draw I = P/V = 6.95Amps
> Now lets say you have a 17Ah battery?
> Theoretically then you could draw 6.95A from this battery for 10 hrs implying you could power your ebike along for 10 hrs on max power?
> Clearly this is not the case and that is because the motor at various times during your riding, is drawing more that 6.95A (ie more that 250w.).

You are free to believe what you do, as am I.

Yes and I certainly don't believe that a motor produces more than 250w if it can't be powered for 10 hours by a 17Ah 36 volt battery.

[Slowtwitch]

All very confusing - does anyone know any real world situations where prosecutions have been successful for wrongly labelled/derestricted motors? I've searched online and apart from the high profile accidental killing mentioned above, can't find much at all.

Has it been tested in law previously, have any distributors /importers /resellers been prosecuted?

[stodd]

All very confusing - does anyone know any real world situations where prosecutions have been successful for wrongly labelled/derestricted motors? I've searched online and apart from the high profile accidental killing mentioned above, can't find much at all.

Has it been tested in law previously, have any distributors /importers /resellers been prosecuted?

I'm pretty sure that the way the law is written it is the rider who is ultimately responsible, and that it is not an offence to sell a ebike that cannot legally be ridden where the buyer might expect to ride it.

I'm not sure what the rules are about false claims by the seller. There have certainly been sellers explicitly claiming a bike is legally a pedalec when in fact it is not. I think (???but not sure???) that comes under advertising standards and trading standards rules, but not under any highway/traffic legislation.

~~~
An extra complication (see https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-libr ... egulations) is
You should also be aware that The Department of Transport say that electric bikes limited to 15.5mph but fitted with off-road switches or modes that, when triggered, enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK e-bike law

However the definition of 'switch/mode' is very blurred; it is not clear whether/when settings in the firmware count as switches. It seems agreed that if it is very easily accessed from the display in normal riding mode then it is a switch, but that if it is buried deep in firmware and set to legal limits that can only be changed while plugged into a computer it is not.

[bikes4two]

And taking this thread to a slightly different page and that is battery range versus the motor assist speed limit.

• My neighbour and I have the same TSDZ2 (sold as 250w 36v) and same 10Ah bottle battery

• Our bikes are not the same and he is younger than me but we are of comparable fitness and the bikes ride on low roll resist tyres

• We both mostly use only ECO mode (lowest assist level) but he gets around 10-15 more miles out of a full charge when we've ridden together

• Now of course there are a lot of variables there, not least of which may be in battery capacity, but the one of most interesting variables and the purpose of this post, is that his max assist speed is set to 25kph whlst I had mine on 45kph

• This meant that on downhill runs his electrical assist dropped off at 25kph whilst mine was still being powered until 45kph which as a careful rider, is not often

• Now the thing is, he didn't have anydifficulty in keeping pace with me without any apparent additional effort. This meant that I was using more power on the downhills than he was

• I've now set my max assist speed to 25kph and whilst I need a few more longer runs, it does look as though I'm now getting an increased range out of my battery

Now all of that could be complete hogwash, but I'm wondering what others thought might be and/or have experienced similar?

[hemo]

Faster assist speed kills the battery range.

[bikes4two]

Faster assist speed kills the battery range.

Thanks Hemo - to give some perspective to your comment, can you give some idea in your experience of how much battery range is affected by higher assist speeds please (and was this with a TSDZ2 or another motor)?

Today I was out again - on my TSDZ2 with 36v 10Ah battery and this time I had the speed limit set to 25kph and I got to 50 miles over undulating terian which is at least a 10% improvement on previous efforts with the speed limit at 45kph - and I've still some battery left which I'll try to 'use up' tomorrow.

[hemo]

Simply put, the higher the speed cut off is the more assist is helping. Motor current doesn't drop off until near the terminal set speed so current draw will still be at the max set assist level.


On pedelecs their is a weed head with a dongled bosh at legal speeds he says he can getsabout 50 miles but he likes riding at 30mph everywhere so only gets about 30 miles if he's lucky.

[Slowtwitch]

I have a large stretch of open moorland near me, and a good ten mile section of single track all of which is on common land. I'd like to test the limits of my TSDZ2 on this bit of ground. It's by and large devoid of people and animals so no danger of bumping into anything or anyone.

What is the theoretical speed limit of the unit, and what have other users found to be real world limitations? This is purely an experiment, as I'm interested in lobbying our local council to make an off-road track (preferably a circuit) available for de-regulated ebikes and their users, free from any legal constraints (where the council are the sole landowners)

They love statistical information, and I'm currently compiling a list of bikes and motors to give them an idea of potential performance and off road safety issues. At the moment they do not seem antipathetic to the idea.

[rjb]

Has anyone found a manual for the VLCD6 controller. The online manuals ive seen are copied from chinese speak and all talk about a mode button. As the display only has 3 buttons ie 1) power on/off 2)assist up and 3)assist down how do you get to the mode setting?

vlcd6.jpg (9.92 KiB) Viewed 1330 times

https://www.ebikechoices.com/tongsheng- ... ay-manual/

[hemo]

Try this.
https://www.ebikechoices.com/tongsheng- ... ay-manual/

[rjb]

That link refers to the mode switch which the VLCD6 doesn't have. Perhaps random pushing of the other buttons may eventually get you into the menu's.
Anyone know how to?

[bikes4two]

As far as I know, all you can do with the VCLD6 display/control (which I use) is as below:

[rjb]

So what I'm asking is which one is the mode switch,
Is it a 2nd short push of the power button when switched on? The instructions are not clear.

[bikes4two]

I'd like to test the limits of my TSDZ2 --------- What is the theoretical speed limit of the unit,

I'm presuming you mean the speed limit of motor assistance? In which case it is 45Km/hr (28mph) if just using the standard displays.

The OSF configurator also limits to 45kph - If you have the software tools, you might be able to push the motor even harder (I just don't know), but the more extreme the demands on the motor, the more likely this could lead to motor damage.

Endless Sphere has lots of stories of motor overheat, blue gear probelms and other bits failing, but there again most forum posting are along the line of "my xxx is broken, how do I fix it" rather than "I use xxx product and it's been great for years".

If you have the stamina and a large chainring, you can go faster than this, but under your own steam and I suspect beyond the motor's design limits.

How quickly you get to 45kph depends on the configuration of your motor which is 250w/350w/500w/750w and battery 36v/48v/52v