Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

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Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Dec 2021, 3:02pmThe costs of this are now becoming apparent. For example yesterday's inflation figures, and many analysts are putting supply chain problems high on their list of causes.
[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Dec 2021, 3:27pm And this shortage despite us doing less trade than at any time since the early 1980s
New report from the House of Lords. "Transporting goods" is in Chapter 3:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/l ... tAnchor001
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/l ... tAnchor043

Jonathan
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by [XAP]Bob »

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... s-2020.pdf
https://www.ft.com/content/d174f95e-cd7 ... 1de7d0134b (The pink is forecast, not actual - though there isn't much of 2021 to affect the initial drop)

The top figure in the gov document is the trade volumes, which are down to early eighties levels (i.e. forty years ago), the FT data goes back even further.
The comparison is that Rotterdam has done significantly more trade in 2021 than 2020 (and they only dropped 7% in 2020 compared with 2019) They are also dealing with the pandemic and global shortages of containers etc...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
francovendee
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Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by francovendee »

I heard a farming program on radio 4 this morning.
The pig farmers have slaughtered 30000 pigs on farms due to processors not able to take them.
Under the governments visa scheme the industry is allowed to bring 800 butchers to the UK on a temporary basis.
So far 50 have arrived, some from Russia and Brazil.
One hurdle applicants have to clear is ability to speak English.
The rules insist on this.
When EU workers were allowed to come there wasn't this requirement so why is now necessary for temporary labour?
I understand George Eustice is very unpopular with the farming community and hurriedly fled a press meeting leaving his glasses and notes behind.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 16 Dec 2021, 5:15pm I heard a farming program on radio 4 this morning.
The pig farmers have slaughtered 30000 pigs on farms due to processors not able to take them.
Under the governments visa scheme the industry is allowed to bring 800 butchers to the UK on a temporary basis.
So far 50 have arrived, some from Russia and Brazil.
One hurdle applicants have to clear is ability to speak English.
The rules insist on this.
When EU workers were allowed to come there wasn't this requirement so why is now necessary for temporary labour?
Farmers Weekly yesterday:
https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/eustice-blam ... nfu-summit

Jonathan
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by francovendee »

Just another minister totally unfit to be in government. My god the number in the government must be world beating!
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

Daffodils.

Flower growers fear end of the UK’s £100m industry as Covid and border restrictions lead to lack of seasonal workers
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... gn-workers

Jonathan
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by pwa »

francovendee wrote: 16 Dec 2021, 5:15pm I heard a farming program on radio 4 this morning.
The pig farmers have slaughtered 30000 pigs on farms due to processors not able to take them.
Under the governments visa scheme the industry is allowed to bring 800 butchers to the UK on a temporary basis.
So far 50 have arrived, some from Russia and Brazil.
One hurdle applicants have to clear is ability to speak English.
The rules insist on this.
When EU workers were allowed to come there wasn't this requirement so why is now necessary for temporary labour?
I understand George Eustice is very unpopular with the farming community and hurriedly fled a press meeting leaving his glasses and notes behind.
Surely there are sound reasons for wanting workers to be able to speak the language of the place where they are working. Reasons to do with safety and the ability to understand the rules that apply. It is a very basic requirement.

I have worked alongside a few foreign colleagues and they have all had a reasonable grasp of English, certainly good enough for the workplace. And looking at it from another angle, I have always thought it pretty poor when Brits work abroad without having the language of the place where they work. I'd be ashamed if that were me.
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 7:41pm
francovendee wrote: 16 Dec 2021, 5:15pm I heard a farming program on radio 4 this morning.
The pig farmers have slaughtered 30000 pigs on farms due to processors not able to take them.
Under the governments visa scheme the industry is allowed to bring 800 butchers to the UK on a temporary basis.
So far 50 have arrived, some from Russia and Brazil.
One hurdle applicants have to clear is ability to speak English.
The rules insist on this.
When EU workers were allowed to come there wasn't this requirement so why is now necessary for temporary labour?
I understand George Eustice is very unpopular with the farming community and hurriedly fled a press meeting leaving his glasses and notes behind.
Surely there are sound reasons for wanting workers to be able to speak the language of the place where they are working. Reasons to do with safety and the ability to understand the rules that apply. It is a very basic requirement.

I have worked alongside a few foreign colleagues and they have all had a reasonable grasp of English, certainly good enough for the workplace. And looking at it from another angle, I have always thought it pretty poor when Brits work abroad without having the language of the place where they work. I'd be ashamed if that were me.
It's temporary work. Round here a lot of such "migrant labour" work in teams with a foreman who can translate and live in larg'ish digs. They don't tend to do the local tourism stuff (but no reason why they need to speak English to do that anyway). I've travelled to many countries where I have spoken nothing in local language, some countries where I refused to even learn a few words (e.g. Vietnamese, tonal language very very dependent on complex pronunciation). I've always found that with the right attitude travelling without language is not an issue. I've also learnt a fair amount of local language for other countries visited. How many people going and working in Netherlands learn Dutch? (I did and it nearly got me arrested one cycle tour - funny story and NOT my misuse of long ago learnt language).

Ian
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by pwa »

Psamathe wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:18pm
It's temporary work. Round here a lot of such "migrant labour" work in teams with a foreman who can translate and live in larg'ish digs. They don't tend to do the local tourism stuff (but no reason why they need to speak English to do that anyway). I've travelled to many countries where I have spoken nothing in local language, some countries where I refused to even learn a few words (e.g. Vietnamese, tonal language very very dependent on complex pronunciation). I've always found that with the right attitude travelling without language is not an issue. I've also learnt a fair amount of local language for other countries visited. How many people going and working in Netherlands learn Dutch? (I did and it nearly got me arrested one cycle tour - funny story and NOT my misuse of long ago learnt language).

Ian
I'm talking about workers, not tourists. And we are talking about professional butchers. Okay, as a sticking plaster quick fix a little community of non-English speakers who never have to speak English because they don't mix with the locals, and who have rules explained to them, might be acceptable, but it isn't great, is it? If anything is bound to lead to a "them and us" situation, the lack of a common language will. Nor is it great when Brits work abroad without being able to speak enough of the local language to get by.
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:28pm
Psamathe wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:18pm
It's temporary work. Round here a lot of such "migrant labour" work in teams with a foreman who can translate and live in larg'ish digs. They don't tend to do the local tourism stuff (but no reason why they need to speak English to do that anyway). I've travelled to many countries where I have spoken nothing in local language, some countries where I refused to even learn a few words (e.g. Vietnamese, tonal language very very dependent on complex pronunciation). I've always found that with the right attitude travelling without language is not an issue. I've also learnt a fair amount of local language for other countries visited. How many people going and working in Netherlands learn Dutch? (I did and it nearly got me arrested one cycle tour - funny story and NOT my misuse of long ago learnt language).

Ian
I'm talking about workers, not tourists. And we are talking about professional butchers. Okay, as a sticking plaster quick fix a little community of non-English speakers who never have to speak English because they don't mix with the locals, and who have rules explained to them, might be acceptable, but it isn't great, is it? If anything is bound to lead to a "them and us" situation, the lack of a common language will. Nor is it great when Brits work abroad without being able to speak enough of the local language to get by.
I have local migrant labour gangs living down the road, specialised work (poultry) and they don't speak English and manage fine with foreman who can instruct and translate. They don't try and integrate but there is really no opportunity locally for them to integrate. Their priority is to work long hours and earn as much as they can.

Ian
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by pwa »

Psamathe wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:33pm
pwa wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:28pm
Psamathe wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:18pm
It's temporary work. Round here a lot of such "migrant labour" work in teams with a foreman who can translate and live in larg'ish digs. They don't tend to do the local tourism stuff (but no reason why they need to speak English to do that anyway). I've travelled to many countries where I have spoken nothing in local language, some countries where I refused to even learn a few words (e.g. Vietnamese, tonal language very very dependent on complex pronunciation). I've always found that with the right attitude travelling without language is not an issue. I've also learnt a fair amount of local language for other countries visited. How many people going and working in Netherlands learn Dutch? (I did and it nearly got me arrested one cycle tour - funny story and NOT my misuse of long ago learnt language).

Ian
I'm talking about workers, not tourists. And we are talking about professional butchers. Okay, as a sticking plaster quick fix a little community of non-English speakers who never have to speak English because they don't mix with the locals, and who have rules explained to them, might be acceptable, but it isn't great, is it? If anything is bound to lead to a "them and us" situation, the lack of a common language will. Nor is it great when Brits work abroad without being able to speak enough of the local language to get by.
I have local migrant labour gangs living down the road, specialised work (poultry) and they don't speak English and manage fine with foreman who can instruct and translate. They don't try and integrate but there is really no opportunity locally for them to integrate. Their priority is to work long hours and earn as much as they can.

Ian
Are you happy with that? It doesn't feel right to me. One community living alongside another, with no real contact. It can't be a great way for them to live either.
rjb
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Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by rjb »

This was also mentioned in that programme. 10 years ago there was no problem recruiting local people to take on these jobs in abattoir's. When the UK opened up to EU workers they filled all these roles and undercut the locals. The abattoir's didn't need to keep their training programmes so stopped training and apprentice ships. The chickens have come home to roost now and the reason abattoir's can't fill these vacancies is because they need to restart training, apprenticeships, recruit locally and pay them all a living wage. You can't fix that overnight so we have to have a temporary solution until market forces catch up.
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

Screenshot 2021-12-18 at 21.22.59.png
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... Boris.html

I'd put this squarely in the Opportunities quadrant for supply chains.

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:47pm
Psamathe wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:33pm
pwa wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 8:28pm
I'm talking about workers, not tourists. And we are talking about professional butchers. Okay, as a sticking plaster quick fix a little community of non-English speakers who never have to speak English because they don't mix with the locals, and who have rules explained to them, might be acceptable, but it isn't great, is it? If anything is bound to lead to a "them and us" situation, the lack of a common language will. Nor is it great when Brits work abroad without being able to speak enough of the local language to get by.
I have local migrant labour gangs living down the road, specialised work (poultry) and they don't speak English and manage fine with foreman who can instruct and translate. They don't try and integrate but there is really no opportunity locally for them to integrate. Their priority is to work long hours and earn as much as they can.

Ian
Are you happy with that? It doesn't feel right to me. One community living alongside another, with no real contact. It can't be a great way for them to live either.
It's not something that bothers me. When I've lived somewhere (or spent a lot of time somewhere) I have learnt the language (as far as time and my ability permitted) - but I have been "integrating" e.g. working in NL with Dutch people in Dutch company, living in France in area where I was the only foreigner. But the "migrant labour" are here for very different reasons and their not speaking English does not really impact them or us.

As far as "can't be a great way for them to live" I regard it as their choice. That said I don't know if (outside pandemics) there are language classes locally they could get to nor if their work hours would permit such classes or practice.

Ian
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 9:26pm Screenshot 2021-12-18 at 21.22.59.png
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... Boris.html

I'd put this squarely in the Opportunities quadrant for supply chains.

Jonathan
With no evidence, I do wonder if the real reason is he's come to realise he really did negotiate and agree and support the Brexit departure deal and has rather late realised the EU are not going to back down and that we need them more than they need us. So leaving to get somebody else to have to eventually admit failure.

Ian
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