Cycling UK Forum

Brexit has not failed, we have what most people who voted to get out wanted. Its not all about money, ideology is much more important and in the future will pay all sorts of dividends including greater wealth and progress I suspect.

Al

al_yrpal wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 4:50pm Brexit has not failed, we have what most people who voted to get out wanted. Its not all about money, ideology is much more important and in the future will pay all sorts of dividends including greater wealth and progress I suspect.

For most people, wellbeing is much more important than ideology. Ideologues are rarely regarded positively by normal people.

Your statement that it's now all about ideology rather than improving people's lives, shows just how total the failure is.

And forgive me if, seven years after the vote, I give no credence to yet more fantasies of jam tomorrow, to be delivered by "suspect" rather than any actual plan.

roubaixtuesday wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 5:02pm

al_yrpal wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 4:50pm Brexit has not failed, we have what most people who voted to get out wanted. Its not all about money, ideology is much more important and in the future will pay all sorts of dividends including greater wealth and progress I suspect.

For most people, wellbeing is much more important than ideology. Ideologues are rarely regarded positively by normal people.

Your statement that it's now all about ideology rather than improving people's lives, shows just how total the failure is.

And forgive me if, seven years after the vote, I give no credence to yet more fantasies of jam tomorrow, to be delivered by "suspect" rather than any actual plan.

The whole Brexit thing was always about ideology - and not of the coherent kind but that reduced-to-seven-soundbites kind composed of hoary old myths, various queer prejudices and large dollops of a rather frightening utopia-lust.

The power of ideologies of the sound-bite kind is astonishing. Humans will sacrifice themselves, their families and whole nations to them. As they're dying some awful death in a cold wet ditch, they will declaim their pride at having "served my country" or "stuck to my principles" or ..... some other trite phrase that's supposedly going to compensate for being a self-destructive fool.

Sadly, the self-destructive fools are also quite determined to drag any non-fools to the same fate.

On the other hand, there's any number of awful fates just over the horizon so the Brexity discomforts, damages and deliriums will seem like nothing before too long. Just a sign of the mad times and its madding crowds of loopy humans.

Cugel wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 5:53pm

roubaixtuesday wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 5:02pm

al_yrpal wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 4:50pm Brexit has not failed, we have what most people who voted to get out wanted. Its not all about money, ideology is much more important and in the future will pay all sorts of dividends including greater wealth and progress I suspect.

For most people, wellbeing is much more important than ideology. Ideologues are rarely regarded positively by normal people.

Your statement that it's now all about ideology rather than improving people's lives, shows just how total the failure is.

And forgive me if, seven years after the vote, I give no credence to yet more fantasies of jam tomorrow, to be delivered by "suspect" rather than any actual plan.

The whole Brexit thing was always about ideology - and not of the coherent kind but that reduced-to-seven-soundbites kind composed of hoary old myths, various queer prejudices and large dollops of a rather frightening utopia-lust.
...

At least now we can protect our polar bears



And people really believed it ...

Ian

Psamathe wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 6:11pm

And people really believed it ...

Ian

As evidenced from the dialogue above, many people still do, sadly.

There are increasing signs of dissonance emerging. Hopefully it portends future collapse.

Yet again, a statement made with no evidence to support it. Here's some to the contrary.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... nce-brexit

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/news/bre ... to-the-eu/

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/news/bre ... of-rejoin/

The EU is the source of the problems, its whole mantra is protectionism and anti free trade worldwide. It needs drastic change.

There's a fundamental difference of approach between EU and, for example, USA. The USA prioritises minimal or no regulation of business, and seeks unfettered access to markets. The EU often seeks to regulate businesses for the benefit of consumers. A small recent example could be mandating USB C ports on electronic devices so consumers aren't locked in to a single supplier. The food chain is also very different. The USA does not recognise farm animals as sentient beings, there's little attempt to minimise carcass contamination at slaughter and a reliance on washing in disinfectant post slaughter. The outcomes for consumers are different.

https://www.sustainweb.org/news/feb18_us_foodpoisoning/

Which would you prefer, please?

If you only read the Guardian and some obscure local paper you only get 10% of the picture and then its unbalanced. If you talk to people resident in the superstate you get a more accurate picture.

Al

al_yrpal wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 8:03pm If you only read the Guardian and some obscure local paper you only get 10% of the picture and then its unbalanced. If you talk to people resident in the superstate you get a more accurate picture.

Al

I do. Literally on a daily basis.

wheelyhappy99 wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 7:55pm

There are increasing signs of dissonance emerging. Hopefully it portends future collapse.

Yet again, a statement made with no evidence to support it. Here's some to the contrary.
...

And here are the 2023 figures from Pew:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... elsewhere/

That report also contains the changes, and there have been some drops of a few percent since 2022. But the absolute values (below) and the longer term trend show massive favourability.

Jonathan

al_yrpal wrote: 4 Jan 2024, 8:03pm If you only read the Guardian and some obscure local paper you only get 10% of the picture and then its unbalanced. If you talk to people resident in the superstate you get a more accurate picture.

Al

If you read the Torygraft or Daily Hate Mail, the picture you get will be a dark fantasy drawn by strange fellows suffering multiple delusions not to mention the paranoia. Some have "visions" like those had by them ancient anchorites out in the desert suffering from a very low blud sugar and dehydration.

Others, mind, are all too sane but intent on feeding you manipulative albeit attractive lies designed to get you to cooperate in their evil schemes albeit as a pawn, soon to be sacrificed.

If you talk to people just like yourself .... well. It's a good job you can come 'ere for some proper troofs, eh!?

Cugel, how many people do you know and correspond with regularly in Germany, France, the Netherlands, Bulgaria and Spain who can tell you some of what ordinary folk in various areas of the EU are thinking and saying?

If you tune into the Guardian, the Mail, the Torygraph and the Star, don't you think you get a more balanced view than just reading free ultra left rags like the Guardian?

Al

snip...you get a more balanced view than just reading free ultra left rags like the Guardian?

Al, I agree on your point about a balanced view because otherwise we commit to a rabbit hole and follow it without question, so here's something from February about what President Macron is up to, "And rather than lead Europe into a glorious age of integration, Macron is widening the very divisions in Europe he warned against in 2017." https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/27/fr ... raine-war/

The so-called Qatar-gate corruption scandal in the European Parliament, including former MEPs from Belgium, Italy and Greece (reported in April) https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023 ... on-scandal

and so it goes on. The EU really isn't a paragon of virtue

al_yrpal wrote: 5 Jan 2024, 8:12am Cugel, how many people do you know and correspond with regularly in Germany, France, the Netherlands, Bulgaria and Spain who can tell you some of what ordinary folk in various areas of the EU are thinking and saying?

If you tune into the Guardian, the Mail, the Torygraph and the Star, don't you think you get a more balanced view than just reading free ultra left rags like the Guardian?

Al

Al,

that you can convince yourself of this, just a couple of posts down from reputable research showing widespread support for the EU across the bloc is quite remarkable.

Do you not ever pause and ask yourself why your opinions are so directly in contradiction from reported facts?

Brexit has failed, and its failure strengthened support for the Eu across Europe.

No, Brexit hasnt failed. We are out - thats fact, and looks like we are out for the forseeable future. QED!

Al

al_yrpal wrote: 5 Jan 2024, 8:12am Cugel, how many people do you know and correspond with regularly in Germany, France, the Netherlands, Bulgaria and Spain who can tell you some of what ordinary folk in various areas of the EU are thinking and saying?

If you tune into the Guardian, the Mail, the Torygraph and the Star, don't you think you get a more balanced view than just reading free ultra left rags like the Guardian?

Al

There is no "balanced" view from the mass media, especially the British mass media. The best you can say for the Guardian is that it attempts to avoid becoming a mouthpiece for some particular oligarch or extreme political party element but its full of the same perspectives as found elsewhere, particularly when one looks at its "lifestyle" and "culture" parts,

I find it amazing that you consider The Guardian left wing at all, never mind ultra left! It's classic middle class bland centrist stuff. Perhaps you derive the classification by considering organs such as The Hate Mail or Torygraft as just mildly right wing when in fact they push a watery totalitarianism?

In reality, the whole left-right dichotomy is now useless as a way of understanding current political attitudes and options. A simple binary classification misses a vast amount of policy possibility and potential.