Who is "them"?
Covid Booster. Yes/No? *** The Covid Thread ***
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
Whilst the OP question was quite valid at the time, subsequent research and Omicron have rather changed things making it a mostly irrelevant question. So this thread has moved on to become the general Covid thread (so I've partially renamed it to make it clearer).
Ian
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
I was "selective" with quoted txt you said.Jdsk wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 11:58amThey wrote that because it's true. Ian has linked to the explanation from More or Less. slowster has shown the rates above. I recommend Spiegelhalter:PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 11:50amOh yes I saw the further text (not selective but in the cause of brevity) but in all sincerity wondered how they could write:-Jdsk wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 11:22am
It read to me that you were selectively quoting the article in order to suggest that vaccination wasn't protective.
As the same article says:
"The data clearly demonstrates that people are far more likely to end up in hospital should they be unvaccinated."
and
"Given more than 95% of the age groups and vulnerable populations most likely to need hospital treatment for Covid have been double vaccinated, it clearly shows that having both jabs significantly reduces your risk of being hospitalised with Covid and that the unvaccinated are disproportionately significantly affected by Covid.
Separate data from November 1 on the same report from Public Health Wales suggests you are around three times more likely to need hospital treatment if you haven't had a Covid jab than if you have."
And Ian has already linked to the statistical explanation.
"The data clearly demonstrates that people are far more likely to end up in hospital should they be unvaccinated."
The hospitals here are 80% taken up by vaccinated people.
Just that.
https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver ... vaccinated
Jonathan
But simply because it was from a longer press article.
You are selective, as always, because some direct personal points don't fit the agenda?
And you will not confront them.
I think Horizon is probably right.
There's no real point.
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
What is the point of posting links to statistics without any apparent reason for doing so?PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 11:16amWhat conclusions do you draw please?Jdsk wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 10:57amWhat conclusions did you draw from that, please?PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 10:11am "Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."
From https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/heal ... l-22564491
Thanks
Jonathan
But the main thing I (personally) think relevant is
that to compulsorily vaccinate a small minority people against their will does more harm than has benefit.
I am a (vaccine) liberal.
It is clear from the statistics that reason that majority of people in hospital are vaccinated is because the majority of people are vaccinated. Considering roughly 85% of over 60s have been fully vaccinated, it is clear that vaccination helps. Even if *all* the people in hospital were over 60, we could conclude that vaccination helps.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No? *** The Covid Thread ***
For those who are interested, here is detail about vaccination progress in Wales https://research.senedd.wales/research- ... tion-data/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
Whilst vacciated people can still pass on Covid they are far less likely toPDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 11:50am [....Given the high levels of vaccination and current infection rates one wonders how much is ACTUALLY spread by the 20% unvaccinated in proportion?
Because clearly fully vaccinated folk CAN still pass it on.
I will not see the idea or acceptance of the idea of compulsory vaccination put forward without challenge.
You yourself still do not favour it? You previously said that was so.
[url]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/[/url] Oct 2021 wrote:People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.
There are some areas in the world you cannot go to unless you have a Yellow Fever vaccination (certificate or medical exemption) and we don't hear an outcry about such limitations. Given research currently shows that vaccinated are less likely to spread infection I think it justified that public risk is reduced from those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.[url]https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext[/url] Oct 2021 wrote:Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance.
All those unvaccinated in hospitals and the widespread high levels of virus are not just impacting the unvaccinated but are having big impacts on others e.g.
Is the serious impact on others fair? (And I regard a lot of "elective treatments" have a major impact on those needing them e.g. they can be struggling to cope, houseboud, etc. without much social care available and "elective" makes it sound a bit more minor than a lot actually is).https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/omicron-operations-delayed-boris-johnson-b1987507.html wrote:Urgent operations being postponed after PM tells England to ‘ride out’ Omicron wave
Urgent operations such as cardiac and cancer treatments are being delayed in hospitals as the NHS is stretched like never before, health leaders have warned.
Ian
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
That's entirely unremarkable.PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 10:11am"Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."
Think about it. Nobody is claiming that the vaccine is 100% effective.
So even if the entire population had been double-jabbed, there would still be people in hospital with the virus.
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
The reason is simple.Vorpal wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 12:23pm
What is the point of posting links to statistics without any apparent reason for doing so?
It is clear from the statistics that reason that majority of people in hospital are vaccinated is because the majority of people are vaccinated. Considering roughly 85% of over 60s have been fully vaccinated, it is clear that vaccination helps. Even if *all* the people in hospital were over 60, we could conclude that vaccination helps.
It is that a small minority are being substantially blamed,in the media and elsewhere, for the filling of hospital beds when the figures show that that is not the case at all.
The very large majority in hospital are good citizens!
What is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
Of course.DaveReading wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:20pmThat's entirely unremarkable.PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 10:11am"Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."
Think about it. Nobody is claiming that the vaccine is 100% effective.
So even if the entire population had been double-jabbed, there would still be people in hospital with the virus.
But they take up 80% of the beds.
My reasons for posting are that I am against compulsory vaccination for reasons I have given.
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
What's your estimate of what the rate of new infections would be without vaccination, please?PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:22pmWhat is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.
Jonathan
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
Well you are the man with the links and the stats.Jdsk wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:33pmWhat's your estimate of what the rate of new infections would be without vaccination, please?PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:22pmWhat is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.
Jonathan
And obviously well informed.
Waddya reckon?
I am just a country bumkin.
But there was a piece on the Beeb about a couple of flights from Italy to India where the (presumably?) fully vaccinated passengers had very high levels of positive tests on arrival.
Two thirds of them in fact.
So maybe if all were unvaccinated they would all have got it?
(I guess probably not actually. Some few would have, for various reasons, escaped infection??).
But transposing those figures then a maximum of a third more??
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-59910842
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
ThanksPDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 2:02pmBut transposing those figures then a maximum of a third more??Jdsk wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:33pmWhat's your estimate of what the rate of new infections would be without vaccination, please?PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:22pmWhat is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.
As we've discussed before I don't understand how it's possible to conclude "not so very much" prevention without some estimate of what it would be otherwise.
Jonathan
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?
Unvaccinated patients account for 61% of the Covid patients in ICU beds in Wales. Operations are being cancelled, because there are not enough ICU beds for post-operative care.PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:25pmOf course.DaveReading wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 1:20pmThat's entirely unremarkable.PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 10:11am"Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."
Think about it. Nobody is claiming that the vaccine is 100% effective.
So even if the entire population had been double-jabbed, there would still be people in hospital with the virus.
But they take up 80% of the beds.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-n ... g-22671992
Vaccinated patients are also recovering and being discharged from hospital more quickly from what I have read.
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No? *** The Covid Thread ***
^^ slowster.
It's funny though.
'Cos in the same article the PM is quoted as saying it was up to 90%!
The article states as you say-
"Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%."
NOT that 61% of all ICU beds are taken up by them.
And some of them will be there for other reasons.
Just pointing it out to be clear.
I am a good citizen.
But I am totally against vaccine compulsion.
It's funny though.
'Cos in the same article the PM is quoted as saying it was up to 90%!
The article states as you say-
"Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%."
NOT that 61% of all ICU beds are taken up by them.
And some of them will be there for other reasons.
Just pointing it out to be clear.
I am a good citizen.
But I am totally against vaccine compulsion.
Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No? *** The Covid Thread ***
The article was based on a BMJ article, which was in turn a fact check of Reuters and Guardian articles.PDQ Mobile wrote: ↑9 Jan 2022, 2:52pm It's funny though.
'Cos in the same article the PM is quoted as saying it was up to 90%!
From the Guardian article:
The problem is worst in parts of London, but Cambridge’s Royal Papworth hospital said more than 80% of its Covid patients requiring the most care were unjabbed.
Barts health trust said: “The number of unvaccinated people admitted to ICU has fluctuated between 80% and 90% across the north-east London patch over the past few weeks. For our trust that includes Royal London, Barts, Whipps Cross and Newham.”
On Tuesday a respiratory registrar at a west London hospital tweeted: “Every single patient in our respiratory support unit is unvaccinated … #vaccines work”
Prof Rupert Pearse, an intensive care doctor at the Royal London and Barts, confirmed to the BBC that up to 90% of his patients were unvaccinated.Jo-anne Fowles, a nurse consultant in extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) – a procedure for providing prolonged cardiac and respiratory support – at the Royal Papworth told ITV Anglia: “82% of the patients we have treated for Covid-19 since February have been unvaccinated.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... vaccinatedOn Sunday the health secretary, Sajid Javid, said about nine out of 10 Covid patients needing the most care in hospital had not been jabbed. This figure is believed to refer to those requiring ECMO, according to Anthony Masters, an ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society. He said information provided by NHS England showed that of the 154 Covid patients receiving ECMO between July to November, 141 , or 92%, were unvaccinated.