Covid Booster. Yes/No? *** The Covid Thread ***

[PDQ Mobile]

I’d be much more positive if the suggestion was for them having LFTs every morning though…

Who is "them"?

[Psamathe]

.... AIUI the OP was about those who have had/would have had a booster vaccination and I'm suggesting that the thread is no longer simply about that. ....

Whilst the OP question was quite valid at the time, subsequent research and Omicron have rather changed things making it a mostly irrelevant question. So this thread has moved on to become the general Covid thread (so I've partially renamed it to make it clearer).

Ian

[PDQ Mobile]

It read to me that you were selectively quoting the article in order to suggest that vaccination wasn't protective.

As the same article says:

"The data clearly demonstrates that people are far more likely to end up in hospital should they be unvaccinated."

and

"Given more than 95% of the age groups and vulnerable populations most likely to need hospital treatment for Covid have been double vaccinated, it clearly shows that having both jabs significantly reduces your risk of being hospitalised with Covid and that the unvaccinated are disproportionately significantly affected by Covid.

Separate data from November 1 on the same report from Public Health Wales suggests you are around three times more likely to need hospital treatment if you haven't had a Covid jab than if you have."

And Ian has already linked to the statistical explanation.

Oh yes I saw the further text (not selective but in the cause of brevity) but in all sincerity wondered how they could write:-

"The data clearly demonstrates that people are far more likely to end up in hospital should they be unvaccinated."

The hospitals here are 80% taken up by vaccinated people.
Just that.

They wrote that because it's true. Ian has linked to the explanation from More or Less. slowster has shown the rates above. I recommend Spiegelhalter:
https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver ... vaccinated

Jonathan

I was "selective" with quoted txt you said.
But simply because it was from a longer press article.

You are selective, as always, because some direct personal points don't fit the agenda?
And you will not confront them.


I think Horizon is probably right.
There's no real point.

[Vorpal]

"Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."

From https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/heal ... l-22564491

What conclusions did you draw from that, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

What conclusions do you draw please?

But the main thing I (personally) think relevant is
that to compulsorily vaccinate a small minority people against their will does more harm than has benefit.

I am a (vaccine) liberal.

What is the point of posting links to statistics without any apparent reason for doing so?

It is clear from the statistics that reason that majority of people in hospital are vaccinated is because the majority of people are vaccinated. Considering roughly 85% of over 60s have been fully vaccinated, it is clear that vaccination helps. Even if *all* the people in hospital were over 60, we could conclude that vaccination helps.

[Vorpal]

For those who are interested, here is detail about vaccination progress in Wales https://research.senedd.wales/research- ... tion-data/

[Psamathe]

[....Given the high levels of vaccination and current infection rates one wonders how much is ACTUALLY spread by the 20% unvaccinated in proportion?
Because clearly fully vaccinated folk CAN still pass it on.


I will not see the idea or acceptance of the idea of compulsory vaccination put forward without challenge.

You yourself still do not favour it? You previously said that was so.

Whilst vacciated people can still pass on Covid they are far less likely to

People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance.

There are some areas in the world you cannot go to unless you have a Yellow Fever vaccination (certificate or medical exemption) and we don't hear an outcry about such limitations. Given research currently shows that vaccinated are less likely to spread infection I think it justified that public risk is reduced from those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.

All those unvaccinated in hospitals and the widespread high levels of virus are not just impacting the unvaccinated but are having big impacts on others e.g.

Urgent operations being postponed after PM tells England to ‘ride out’ Omicron wave
Urgent operations such as cardiac and cancer treatments are being delayed in hospitals as the NHS is stretched like never before, health leaders have warned.

Is the serious impact on others fair? (And I regard a lot of "elective treatments" have a major impact on those needing them e.g. they can be struggling to cope, houseboud, etc. without much social care available and "elective" makes it sound a bit more minor than a lot actually is).

Ian

[DaveReading]

"Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."

That's entirely unremarkable.

Think about it. Nobody is claiming that the vaccine is 100% effective.

So even if the entire population had been double-jabbed, there would still be people in hospital with the virus.

[PDQ Mobile]

What is the point of posting links to statistics without any apparent reason for doing so?

It is clear from the statistics that reason that majority of people in hospital are vaccinated is because the majority of people are vaccinated. Considering roughly 85% of over 60s have been fully vaccinated, it is clear that vaccination helps. Even if *all* the people in hospital were over 60, we could conclude that vaccination helps.

The reason is simple.

It is that a small minority are being substantially blamed,in the media and elsewhere, for the filling of hospital beds when the figures show that that is not the case at all.
The very large majority in hospital are good citizens!

What is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.

[PDQ Mobile]

"Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."

That's entirely unremarkable.

Think about it. Nobody is claiming that the vaccine is 100% effective.

So even if the entire population had been double-jabbed, there would still be people in hospital with the virus.

Of course.
But they take up 80% of the beds.

My reasons for posting are that I am against compulsory vaccination for reasons I have given.

[Jdsk]

What is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.

What's your estimate of what the rate of new infections would be without vaccination, please?

Jonathan

[PDQ Mobile]

What is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.

What's your estimate of what the rate of new infections would be without vaccination, please?

Jonathan

Well you are the man with the links and the stats.
And obviously well informed.
Waddya reckon?

I am just a country bumkin.

But there was a piece on the Beeb about a couple of flights from Italy to India where the (presumably?) fully vaccinated passengers had very high levels of positive tests on arrival.
Two thirds of them in fact.

So maybe if all were unvaccinated they would all have got it?
(I guess probably not actually. Some few would have, for various reasons, escaped infection??).

But transposing those figures then a maximum of a third more??


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-59910842

[Jdsk]

What is less clear is how much full vaccination prevents virus spread?
It seems to me given the high levels of vaccination in the UK and the astonishingly high levels of new (Omicron) infections, not so very much.

What's your estimate of what the rate of new infections would be without vaccination, please?

But transposing those figures then a maximum of a third more??

Thanks

As we've discussed before I don't understand how it's possible to conclude "not so very much" prevention without some estimate of what it would be otherwise.

Jonathan

[slowster]

"Data from Public Health Wales shows that of the 544 people in hospital with the virus on December 2, more than three-quarters (76.1%) had been doubled-jabbed, 3.5% had received only had dose and 16.5% were unvaccinated. The majority of Covid-19 patients at the time were over 60."

That's entirely unremarkable.

Think about it. Nobody is claiming that the vaccine is 100% effective.

So even if the entire population had been double-jabbed, there would still be people in hospital with the virus.

Of course.
But they take up 80% of the beds.

Unvaccinated patients account for 61% of the Covid patients in ICU beds in Wales. Operations are being cancelled, because there are not enough ICU beds for post-operative care.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-n ... g-22671992

Vaccinated patients are also recovering and being discharged from hospital more quickly from what I have read.

[PDQ Mobile]

^^ slowster.
It's funny though.
'Cos in the same article the PM is quoted as saying it was up to 90%!


The article states as you say-

"Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%."

NOT that 61% of all ICU beds are taken up by them.
And some of them will be there for other reasons.

Just pointing it out to be clear.

I am a good citizen.
But I am totally against vaccine compulsion.

[slowster]

It's funny though.
'Cos in the same article the PM is quoted as saying it was up to 90%!

The article was based on a BMJ article, which was in turn a fact check of Reuters and Guardian articles.

From the Guardian article:

The problem is worst in parts of London, but Cambridge’s Royal Papworth hospital said more than 80% of its Covid patients requiring the most care were unjabbed.

Barts health trust said: “The number of unvaccinated people admitted to ICU has fluctuated between 80% and 90% across the north-east London patch over the past few weeks. For our trust that includes Royal London, Barts, Whipps Cross and Newham.”

On Tuesday a respiratory registrar at a west London hospital tweeted: “Every single patient in our respiratory support unit is unvaccinated … #vaccines work”

Prof Rupert Pearse, an intensive care doctor at the Royal London and Barts, confirmed to the BBC that up to 90% of his patients were unvaccinated.

Jo-anne Fowles, a nurse consultant in extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) – a procedure for providing prolonged cardiac and respiratory support – at the Royal Papworth told ITV Anglia: “82% of the patients we have treated for Covid-19 since February have been unvaccinated.”

On Sunday the health secretary, Sajid Javid, said about nine out of 10 Covid patients needing the most care in hospital had not been jabbed. This figure is believed to refer to those requiring ECMO, according to Anthony Masters, an ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society. He said information provided by NHS England showed that of the 154 Covid patients receiving ECMO between July to November, 141 , or 92%, were unvaccinated.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... vaccinated