Cycling UK Forum

pete75 wrote: ↑2 Oct 2021, 4:28pm The German websites I've looked at immediately remove the VAT when you give a UK as shipping address.

I haven't seen any that do that, have you got an example?

It should be pointed out that in the past when you bought something from Europe the tax was paid into the EU and when we sold something to the EU the sales tax was paid to the EU minus a 10% handling fee and this was a huge part of our contribution to the EU. It was extremely damaging to the UK economy and in addition to our large trade deficit with the EU anyway. If the products had EU tariffs then it worked the same except I believe the handling fee increased to 20% that we could keep. So now both sales taxes and tariffs go to our own exchequer which is massively beneficial to our economy but a bit of a pain to the end consumer and smaller retailers.

I must admit I voted to remain in the EU but later regretted the decision when I had a conversation with a liberal democrat representative online (the party I used to vote for) and he was utterly clueless about our debts and trade deficit and had absolutely no idea how such debts could be paid back while remaining in the EU. I then realised both the Conservatives and Labour at least had some debate about EU membership where as my own party were in some sort of fantasy land.

Anyway more money going to the exchequer means less money borrowed and less debt on our heads except of course the pandemic has skyrocketed public sector debts over the world but when that settles then we should see an improvement but we have left the EU with debts of £1.7 trillion and a huge amount of assets sold and reduced manufacturing etc. The country is in a very damaged state and will take decades to repair outside the EU.

PH wrote: ↑2 Oct 2021, 5:16pm

pete75 wrote: ↑2 Oct 2021, 4:28pm The German websites I've looked at immediately remove the VAT when you give a UK as shipping address.

I haven't seen any that do that, have you got an example?

Don't like the implication that I'm lying but I can do better than a website - my outboard invoice.



Pos Item Description Unit Price € Order Amount € excl. VAT



1 21208 ME-F3.5MH Outboard Motor, Type: Short 630,21 1,0 630,21
shaft, Weight: 18 kg
2 12 shipping cost for bulky goods 33,95 1,0 33,95

The goods will be shipped after reception of the payment.
Payment of lower amounts will not be validated
Bank transfer to the Postbank Hamburg
IBAN: DE06 2001 0020 0581 9032 07 / BIC: PBNKDEFFXXX
Please precise the invoice number.





VAT-exempt delivery




Subtotal 664,16 VAT 0% 0,00 VAT 0% 0,00 Total EUR excl. VAT 664,16

pete75 wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 5:52pm

PH wrote: ↑2 Oct 2021, 5:16pm

pete75 wrote: ↑2 Oct 2021, 4:28pm The German websites I've looked at immediately remove the VAT when you give a UK as shipping address.

I haven't seen any that do that, have you got an example?

Don't like the implication that I'm lying but I can do better than a website - my outboard invoice.

Sorry that felt that was the implication, if anything I still think either you or the retailer has made an error, you've said there are German websites not charging VAT on goods over and under the £135 limit, I'm still interested to see them.

Subtotal 664,16 VAT 0% 0,00 VAT 0% 0,00 Total EUR excl. VAT 664,16

I wouldn't have expected that order to have had VAT applied, it's over £135, that's what's supposed to happen.

PH wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 6:04pm

pete75 wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 5:52pm

PH wrote: ↑2 Oct 2021, 5:16pm

I haven't seen any that do that, have you got an example?

Don't like the implication that I'm lying but I can do better than a website - my outboard invoice.

Sorry that felt that was the implication, if anything I still think either you or the retailer has made an error, you've said there are German websites not charging VAT on goods over and under the £135 limit, I'm still interested to see them.

Subtotal 664,16 VAT 0% 0,00 VAT 0% 0,00 Total EUR excl. VAT 664,16

I wouldn't have expected that order to have had VAT applied, it's over £135, that's what's supposed to happen.

I bought some binoculars from the same place 67 Euros and the VAT rate was 0%. I bought stuff from SVB, Siebenrock and another I can't remember all with no VAT. Why the hell should a German retailer collect VAT on behalf of a government that hates anything European?

pete75 wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 8:04pm Why the hell should a German retailer collect VAT on behalf of a government that hates anything European?

Because they're legally obliged to? I can understand why they wouldn't want to, which is the reason many have decided not to supply to the UK.
What I find puzzling is that they'd put themselves in that position, they're liable for the VAT on the items they've sold you whether they've collected it or not.

You put a great deal of faith in the letter of the law always being followed.

How exactly are HMRC going to enforce such legal obligations on small, niche, overseas sellers? Sue them?

It's easy enough for large marketplaces (eBay, AliExpress etc) as they have UK registrations, hence they've all had to get on board but the small sellers will either refuse to sell here or just send ex VAT and let someone else sort the problem out

So the question remains of what happens with such goods if they actually get picked up at customs, do they just get sent back or does the buyer get the option to pay the vat that should've been collected already.

Stevek76 wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 9:10pm You put a great deal of faith in the letter of the law always being followed.

I don't, I'm very aware of the errors that can occur.
That's why I asked earlier if Pete thought the errors were intentional or not.
Ask yourself - If you were a retailer and you knew you ought to be collecting VAT, and that if you didn't you might have to pay it, or have your parcel stopped and returned, why you wouldn't?
Maybe in the short term you might be relatively confident that they'd get through unchecked, but that isn't going to last, the appropriate declaration label will be bar coded and carriers won't want the hassle of returns so are unlikely to accept any that aren't.

So the question remains of what happens with such goods if they actually get picked up at customs, do they just get sent back or does the buyer get the option to pay the vat that should've been collected already.

The intention of the EU regulation is that the responsibility for consignments under 150 Euro remain solely with the retailer, as far as I'm aware the UK hasn't deviated from that. So yes, it should either be sorted by them or returned to them, but if past experience is anything to go on it's more likely to gather dust in some distribution centre till eventually being disposed of. There were some stories in Jan of carriers trying to collect unpaid VAT from the end customer, they shouldn't be doing so, there's no process for that (I think they carried over the old system) and I haven't heard any such stories recently. If that did happen to anyone they'd be entitled to reject it, or pay and reclaim, the retailers would not only be liable for the VAT, but there's also set penalties.
I'm currently doing some temp work for a logistics company that's acting as an Import Agent for several large EU companies, using a permitted system of Postponed VAT, it's primarily a way of supplying UK customers with consignment over £135 without them having to deal with the VAT and import duty themselves, but it's going to include lower value as well.
Just to confuse matters further, there's also the VAT on Gifts, that's payable by the end customer on anything over £39 and as an import tax it also applies to the shipping charge.
I don't think anyone is disputing how unprepared the UK was on Jan 1, it's getting better, though obviously has a long way to go. IMO understanding how it's supposed to work is important in getting there and too often people let their political views get in the way of that.

PH wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 8:14pm

pete75 wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 8:04pm Why the hell should a German retailer collect VAT on behalf of a government that hates anything European?

Because they're legally obliged to? I can understand why they wouldn't want to, which is the reason many have decided not to supply to the UK.
What I find puzzling is that they'd put themselves in that position, they're liable for the VAT on the items they've sold you whether they've collected it or not.

UK law doesn't apply in Germany.

pete75 wrote: ↑4 Oct 2021, 3:00am

PH wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 8:14pm

pete75 wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 8:04pm Why the hell should a German retailer collect VAT on behalf of a government that hates anything European?

Because they're legally obliged to? I can understand why they wouldn't want to, which is the reason many have decided not to supply to the UK.
What I find puzzling is that they'd put themselves in that position, they're liable for the VAT on the items they've sold you whether they've collected it or not.

UK law doesn't apply in Germany.

I've decided not to continue this, it has nothing to do with the original question, to which the answer remains no.
If anyone wants to understand why an exporter has to comply with the regulations set out by the recipient company, what laws control that and who enforces them, the WTO would be a good starting point, before looking into the reciprocal agreements.
If anyone finds some error in anything I've written on this thread, I'll be happy to correct it.

Hi,&

PH wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 10:07pm
I'm currently doing some temp work for a logistics company that's acting as an Import Agent for several large EU companies, using a permitted system of Postponed VAT, it's primarily a way of supplying UK customers with consignment over £135 without them having to deal with the VAT and import duty themselves, but it's going to include lower value as well.
Just to confuse matters further, there's also the VAT on Gifts, that's payable by the end customer on anything over £39 and as an import tax it also applies to the shipping charge.
I don't think anyone is disputing how unprepared the UK was on Jan 1, it's getting better, though obviously has a long way to go. IMO understanding how it's supposed to work is important in getting there and too often people let their political views get in the way of that.

In my bill up post I paid VAT which was collected by eBay I presume?
So my goods came to less than £39 (I made offer to make sure of that) but I was still charged VAT?

Can you expand more on why do you have to pay VAT at the retail end On gifts? (39-135 £)
And why did I pay VAT on something less than £39 as it's less than €39 (I'm assuming the euro is still worth less than a pound)?

https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
"You will not have to pay anything to the delivery company to receive goods worth less than £135 unless they’re gifts over £39 or excise goods (for example, alcohol and tobacco).
VAT
VAT is charged on all goods (except for gifts worth £39 or less) sent from:

outside the UK to Great Britain
outside the UK and the EU to Northern Ireland
VAT is not charged on goods that are gifts worth £39 or less.

You pay VAT when you buy the goods or to the delivery company before you receive them. If you have to pay VAT to the delivery company, it’s charged on the total package value, including:

the value of the goods
postage, packaging and insurance
any duty you owe
VAT is charged at the VAT rate that applies to your goods."

P.S. I'm probably thinking that my parcel wasn't classified as a gift that's why VAT was applied At under £39?
Do eBay rate goods or gifts when applying VAT?
TIA

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: ↑4 Oct 2021, 10:57am Can you expand more on why do you have to pay VAT at the retail end On gifts? (39-135 £)
And why did I pay VAT on something less than £39 as it's less than €39 (I'm assuming the euro is still worth less than a pound)?

The rules for gifts and purchases are different, they were before Brexit for items outside the EU, I don't know why, maybe to stop fraud.
There's no lower limit for VAT on purchases (It used to be £15) there's no VAT on gifts under £39, the VAT on gifts is the responsibility of the recipient rather than the sender, which can also incur handling fees. In both cases other import duties don't apply to consignments under £135. (Unless it's excise duty)
There's a Which guide which I think is the clearest, it points out, for gifts:

In some instances the rules mean you could end up paying more in delivery charges and customs fees then you might have if you ordered the item yourself online.

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights ... rom-the-uk

Do eBay rate goods or gifts when applying VAT?

Ebay are deemed to be the seller, so it's goods not gifts.
viewtopic.php?p=1643277#p1643277

Hi,
https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/listings/de ... olid=10001
I'm just starting to wade through this.

Hi,
Thanks for pointing out that question had been answered already
Just for awhile I thought I'd go on eBay chat basically confirmed, But they are unsure about secondhand stuff?
Not sure but I saw in the help "margin" rated VAT goods? But of course this means nothing because eBay applies VAT to everything normally.
Customer pays VAT in full.

PH wrote: ↑4 Oct 2021, 9:30am

pete75 wrote: ↑4 Oct 2021, 3:00am

PH wrote: ↑3 Oct 2021, 8:14pm
Because they're legally obliged to? I can understand why they wouldn't want to, which is the reason many have decided not to supply to the UK.
What I find puzzling is that they'd put themselves in that position, they're liable for the VAT on the items they've sold you whether they've collected it or not.

UK law doesn't apply in Germany.

I've decided not to continue this, it has nothing to do with the original question, to which the answer remains no.
If anyone wants to understand why an exporter has to comply with the regulations set out by the recipient company, what laws control that and who enforces them, the WTO would be a good starting point, before looking into the reciprocal agreements.
If anyone finds some error in anything I've written on this thread, I'll be happy to correct it.

You may well be correct in theory. What happens in reality is somewhat different.