Cycling UK Forum

Ben@Forest wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 8:57amAs an example I often used to get a taxi and driver who turned up was often the same Polish woman. Over time I found out she lived in a house with four other (male) Polish taxi drivers. They were here for the wages. That isn't wrong, but you can understand that a pool of labour like that will have cheaper overheads than a local taxi driver, with a family, with a mortgage.

And of course another anti-immigrant trope relies on "them coming over here and taking our houses". But those five workers were contributing to the UK economy at a much lower use of housing than if they'd each lived in their own house on their own.

There isn't a fixed need for labour that has to be shared amongst those available.

Jonathan

PS: As with minimum wages housing standards need to be set by law and enforced. Market forces won't sort either.

Jdsk wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 9:39am

Ben@Forest wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 8:57am The driver shortage was manageable through foreign drivers and they were attracted here because wages were higher. Having foreign drivers then creates a scenario in which you can keep wages down.

Most analyses show the opposite for the recent case of the UK within the EU. Citations available on request.

Of course the arguments can be repeated as often as required, but stating this as a bare fact isn't consistent with the current evidence.

I suppose you ask two economists, you get three opinions. But what I stated (which seems common sense in supply and demand terms) was paraphrased from an interview on R4 with a European haulage union leader recently. He said drivers came from the EU for the higher wages; wages were then depressed.

And UK citizens went to Europe for high wages.

Ben@Forest wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 9:50am

Jdsk wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 9:39am

Ben@Forest wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 8:57am The driver shortage was manageable through foreign drivers and they were attracted here because wages were higher. Having foreign drivers then creates a scenario in which you can keep wages down.

Most analyses show the opposite for the recent case of the UK within the EU. Citations available on request.

Of course the arguments can be repeated as often as required, but stating this as a bare fact isn't consistent with the current evidence.

I suppose you ask two economists, you get three opinions. But what I stated (which seems common sense in supply and demand terms) was paraphrased from an interview on R4 with a European haulage union leader recently. He said drivers came from the EU for the higher wages; wages were then depressed.

The evidence of effect of migration on wages is nothing like the casual opinions of some economists, let alone some journalists, some politicians, or some people involved in the sector.

"Supply and demand" is not an absolute law of anything in any reasonably complex situation.

Jonathan

pwa wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 7:23am The only way the low paid in sectors like that will see their pay rise above the minimum wage is if the employers find it hard work filling vacancies. A plentiful supply of labour is bad news for anyone stacking shelves, cleaning floors or delivering parcels.

That's not the only way. For example, the workers could take some of the shares in company, so dividends go to the workers as well as investors, instead of putting them in opposition, but optimising pay becomes a different calculation too. There are other ways.

And if employers find it too expensive to fill vacancies, they will shut down, burn animals instead of butchering them, let crops rot in the field, leave massive retail barns empty, as we've seen. They will also threaten to do this to get local and national government to apply pressure on workers to accept the low pay, as we've seen.

IR35 was the straw that broke the donkeys back when it come to HGV drivers, esp ee drivers who were effectively working tax free.

But driver shortages has been well talked about within the industry for the last decade, nearly all drivers are in their 50s & 60s and very few young people coming into the industry, it has been obvious to many that when these boys retired their would be a big problem. Much talk of autonomous trucks removing the need for drivers 5 years ago probably puts a lot of young people going through the expensive training - not that they need worry, apart from a few trunking operations we will need drivers in cabs for a long time to come (whatever happened to the dreat autonomous take over?)

Yes Covid has had an affect but in case anyone has forgotten this was was warned of in Project Feaer so widely derided by those now in government.
Maybe the industry bosses should have ignored David Davis and prediction's of the easiest deal in history and they're now to blame for not making provisions for shortages and delays.
Leaving the EU with or without a deal could have been better managed but instead we have this useless bunch.
I don't really care what party is in power so long as the UK gets back some of it's self respect as a functioning country.
Around 2001/2 Nigel Farage predicted the break up of the EU and it still hasn't happened.
Any country that has a sizeable 'exit' group will see the ongoing mess caused by leaving has done nothing to gather support.
A break up of the EU is possible but the one country that has left won't spur others to do the same.

francovendee wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 10:32am Yes Covid has had an affect but in case anyone has forgotten this was was warned of in Project Feaer so widely derided by those now in government.
Maybe the industry bosses should have ignored David Davis and prediction's of the easiest deal in history and they're now to blame for not making provisions for shortages and delays.
Leaving the EU with or without a deal could have been better managed but instead we have this useless bunch.
I don't really care what party is in power so long as the UK gets back some of it's self respect as a functioning country.
Around 2001/2 Nigel Farage predicted the break up of the EU and it still hasn't happened.
Any country that has a sizeable 'exit' group will see the ongoing mess caused by leaving has done nothing to gather support.
A break up of the EU is possible but the one country that has left won't spur others to do the same.

I would guess that the UK’s omnishambles would put most sane people off from emulating it.

mjr wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 10:05am

pwa wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 7:23am The only way the low paid in sectors like that will see their pay rise above the minimum wage is if the employers find it hard work filling vacancies. A plentiful supply of labour is bad news for anyone stacking shelves, cleaning floors or delivering parcels.

That's not the only way. For example, the workers could take some of the shares in company, so dividends go to the workers as well as investors, instead of putting them in opposition, but optimising pay becomes a different calculation too. There are other ways.

And if employers find it too expensive to fill vacancies, they will shut down, burn animals instead of butchering them, let crops rot in the field, leave massive retail barns empty, as we've seen. They will also threaten to do this to get local and national government to apply pressure on workers to accept the low pay, as we've seen.

Yep - large scale union membership amongst the low paid.

pwa wrote: ↑16 Oct 2021, 7:23am

pete75 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2021, 12:41pm

.....................The only reason a job pays low wages is because the employer decides to pay low wages. Nothing to do with immigration. When the minimum wage was implemented in 1999, against strong Conservative opposition, 1.2 million got a pay rise averaging 10%.

The employer decides to pay low wages to keep costs down, but if they have direct and obvious competitors that their customers are aware of, they will be keeping costs down just to remain competitive. That's what happens with the supermarket chains and the delivery companies.. The only way the low paid in sectors like that will see their pay rise above the minimum wage is if the employers find it hard work filling vacancies. A plentiful supply of labour is bad news for anyone stacking shelves, cleaning floors or delivering parcels.

The employer usually pays lower wages in to make more profits on the backs of, usually, their least well paid employees.

Lidl and Aldi pay higher wages than Tesco and have more competitive prices.

The government have all the means at their disposal to control low wages just as they have with rents and always have had with immigration, but they choose not to use them.
Once you allow the market to decide and diminish the power of the unions this is what you get.

PhilD28 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2021, 3:35am The government have all the means at their disposal to control low wages just as they have with rents and always have had with immigration, but they choose not to use them.
Once you allow the market to decide and diminish the power of the unions this is what you get.

Legislation can and does help low paid workers, with things like the minimum wage, but that only helps up to a point. As soon as a regulation or law changes in a way that will put costs up, management teams get to work devising ways around it. For example, removing extra pay for night work that has applied in the past in order to soak up the extra pay that comes with an increase in the minimum wage. Or giving staff more grief for going to the toilet when not actually on a break. But the employees see all these tactics and draw their own conclusions. If they are able to choose between several employers, because the labour supply isn't plentiful, they will be able to leave if their current employer is being mean. And they will be far more reactive to a bad employer than even a well meaning Parliament making laws will ever be. People know when they like who they work for, and they know when they don't.

This idea isn't my own and it isn't new, it is an old, established principle. But there is of course a balance to be drawn to avoid having so little labour available that production stalls (the lorry driver situation being the obvious current example), or, on the other side, having so much labour on tap that employers are able to disregard how their employees feel. There are clearly difficulties in finding the sweet spot.

It’s why we always had unions that worked hard for the rights that have been so eroded in the last 30 years. I know I was an active trade unionist for many years.
But effective legislation is still the best way forward alongside a solid unionised workforce. Of course that’s so unfashionable these days.

Problem is trade unions have been strategically demonised by the real demons.

Sorry to mention Germany again but not only is that country more productive with higher GDP, it pays higher wages, has better pensions, better and more affordable child care, Trade a Union people in the boardroom, more immigration and less Covid.

Socially progressive employment and social care legislation works. It isn’t as if the UK genuinely leaves things to the market: the latter is very biased towards the rich by regressive taxation. The market is fixed to the disadvantage of the many.