Cycling UK Forum

531colin wrote: ↑18 Oct 2021, 12:17pm One vote for white elephant.
Just solder the connections....its a longer lasting job than crimping, which obviously stresses the wire as you crimp.....solder splints the wire by joining the strands together.

Soldered joints can be problamatic where vibration is concerned - hence in the past cables on refrigeration units of large container lorries had to be crimped.
On larger cables there are a large range of crimps available - I found them very effective for joining larger cables (say 150 sq mm) where a solderd joint had failed.
Soldering has it's place but usually I will crimp a cable for cycle wiring.

Just a note about solder. I finished my reel of ersin resin cored solder (from the 1990's or earlier) recently. I purchased some new solder from eBay but found it very difficult to use, it was melting at a much higher temp and my sodering iron was struggling to get hot enough. A friendly electrician gave me an old reel he was about to dispose of. Its back to normal service. I can only assume current offerings of solder melt at much higher temps due to reducing the lead content to comply with emission regs.
Fortunately I now have enough to see me out. providing I don't peg it from lead poisoning from breathing in the fumes I've been here before drinking the stuff as we had our water supply via lead pipes up to the age of 10.

Whilst a soldered joint is far preferable to any other joint, a well crimped joint is far better for those not comfortable with soldering than other methods, providing it's done with the right tool that will compress it so tight as to prevent water ingress or loosening. Finish off with a shrink wrap sleeve that can easily be applied with a hot air gun or a match/cigarette lighter.

jb wrote: ↑15 Mar 2023, 10:54pm Whilst a soldered joint is far preferable to any other joint, a well crimped joint is far better for those not comfortable with soldering than other methods, providing it's done with the right tool that will compress it so tight as to prevent water ingress or loosening. Finish off with a shrink wrap sleeve that can easily be applied with a hot air gun or a match/cigarette lighter.

… but as has already been pointed out, soldering is not ‘far preferable’ in every case. Horses for courses.

rjb wrote: ↑15 Mar 2023, 10:03am Just a note about solder. I finished my reel of ersin resin cored solder (from the 1990's or earlier) recently. I purchased some new solder from eBay but found it very difficult to use, it was melting at a much higher temp and my sodering iron was struggling to get hot enough. A friendly electrician gave me an old reel he was about to dispose of. Its back to normal service. I can only assume current offerings of solder melt at much higher temps due to reducing the lead content to comply with emission regs.
...

The melting points:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder#Lead-based
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder#Lead-free

Jonathan

rjb wrote: ↑15 Mar 2023, 10:03am Just a note about solder. I finished my reel of ersin resin cored solder (from the 1990's or earlier) recently. I purchased some new solder from eBay but found it very difficult to use, it was melting at a much higher temp and my sodering iron was struggling to get hot enough. A friendly electrician gave me an old reel he was about to dispose of. Its back to normal service. I can only assume current offerings of solder melt at much higher temps due to reducing the lead content to comply with emission regs.

You can still use lead solder in prototyping, but not in production. Buying the stuff is a nightmare though.

Airsporter1st wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 11:15am

jb wrote: ↑15 Mar 2023, 10:54pm Whilst a soldered joint is far preferable to any other joint, a well crimped joint is far better for those not comfortable with soldering than other methods, providing it's done with the right tool that will compress it so tight as to prevent water ingress or loosening. Finish off with a shrink wrap sleeve that can easily be applied with a hot air gun or a match/cigarette lighter.

… but as has already been pointed out, soldering is not ‘far preferable’ in every case. Horses for courses.

I fail to see how a soldered joint is not far preferable, I can see there may be times when its not possible or practical but to have the wire and spade fused together is to guarantee a connection permanently. a sleeve will help with vibration fatigue if that's a problem that will ever effect a cycle. I only ever had a problem when I tried bonding the frame and fork together with a short bit of cable - the articulation eventually broke the wire despite having curled it up like a telephone wire.

ANTONISH wrote: ↑15 Mar 2023, 9:48am

531colin wrote: ↑18 Oct 2021, 12:17pm One vote for white elephant.
Just solder the connections....its a longer lasting job than crimping, which obviously stresses the wire as you crimp.....solder splints the wire by joining the strands together.

Soldered joints can be problamatic where vibration is concerned - hence in the past cables on refrigeration units of large container lorries had to be crimped.
On larger cables there are a large range of crimps available - I found them very effective for joining larger cables (say 150 sq mm) where a solderd joint had failed.
Soldering has it's place but usually I will crimp a cable for cycle wiring.

By and large crimping is a better option than soldering for joining end sto cables. You're right about soldering having it's place ,and that's on circuit boards.

https://blog.peigenesis.com/soldering-v ... advantages

pete75 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 2:59pm By and large crimping is a better option than soldering for joining end sto cables. You're right about soldering having it's place ,and that's on circuit boards.

https://blog.peigenesis.com/soldering-v ... advantages

What it says is:

"Soldered connections can also be more sensitive to both corrosion and vibration if not performed properly. This can be especially problematic for applications that involve harsh environments. However, a proper solder connection will withstand vibration and shock like a crimp connection and may be less susceptible to corrosion."

and that's the point: crimp connectors, like IDC and wire wrap, were developed as a means of de-skilling and automating the job, because they're both cheaper, and yield results that are independent of skill level. The problem is that it requires a different connector and tool for each wire size, which makes it expensive and impractical for home applications where you're likely to need just a few connectors, and possibly of various sizes. Soldering, on the other hand, is a flexible skill that suits any connector and is also useful in applications where crimp isn't even relevant.

axel_knutt wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 11:39pm

pete75 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 2:59pm By and large crimping is a better option than soldering for joining end sto cables. You're right about soldering having it's place ,and that's on circuit boards.

https://blog.peigenesis.com/soldering-v ... advantages

What it says is:

"Soldered connections can also be more sensitive to both corrosion and vibration if not performed properly. This can be especially problematic for applications that involve harsh environments. However, a proper solder connection will withstand vibration and shock like a crimp connection and may be less susceptible to corrosion."

and that's the point: crimp connectors, like IDC and wire wrap, were developed as a means of de-skilling and automating the job, because they're both cheaper, and yield results that are independent of skill level. The problem is that it requires a different connector and tool for each wire size, which makes it expensive and impractical for home applications where you're likely to need just a few connectors, and possibly of various sizes. Soldering, on the other hand, is a flexible skill that suits any connector and is also useful in applications where crimp isn't even relevant.

My crimping tool will do three different sizes of connector. covering a range of 22 to 10 awg cables. A selection of about 250 assorted red blue and yellow crimp connectors in a natty compartmented box is about 4 quid. Doing a soldering job properly means having the proper level of skill. A hobbyist doing very few connections is unlikely to have that.

I spent several years soldering big connections when I was a stator winder in a factory making three phase generators. Epoxy coating scraped off many copper wires, lead end stripped and wrapped with wire to the copper , then soldered with a two inch tipped iron. Could be a up to a dozen on each stator, the fumes were not pleasant. If you had to stand there all day, every day doing that soldering, you wouldn't say it was preferable to crimping, which is what the job moved onto some years after I left.

jb wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 12:43pm

Airsporter1st wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 11:15am

jb wrote: ↑15 Mar 2023, 10:54pm Whilst a soldered joint is far preferable to any other joint, a well crimped joint is far better for those not comfortable with soldering than other methods, providing it's done with the right tool that will compress it so tight as to prevent water ingress or loosening. Finish off with a shrink wrap sleeve that can easily be applied with a hot air gun or a match/cigarette lighter.

… but as has already been pointed out, soldering is not ‘far preferable’ in every case. Horses for courses.

I fail to see how a soldered joint is not far preferable, I can see there may be times when its not possible or practical but to have the wire and spade fused together is to guarantee a connection permanently. a sleeve will help with vibration fatigue if that's a problem that will ever effect a cycle. I only ever had a problem when I tried bonding the frame and fork together with a short bit of cable - the articulation eventually broke the wire despite having curled it up like a telephone wire.

There is reason why the auto industry, which must produce billions of wiring connections every year, use crimped over solder - despite the former being more expensive.

Airsporter1st wrote: ↑17 Mar 2023, 9:47am

jb wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 12:43pm

Airsporter1st wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 11:15am

… but as has already been pointed out, soldering is not ‘far preferable’ in every case. Horses for courses.

I fail to see how a soldered joint is not far preferable, I can see there may be times when its not possible or practical but to have the wire and spade fused together is to guarantee a connection permanently. a sleeve will help with vibration fatigue if that's a problem that will ever effect a cycle. I only ever had a problem when I tried bonding the frame and fork together with a short bit of cable - the articulation eventually broke the wire despite having curled it up like a telephone wire.

There is reason why the auto industry, which must produce billions of wiring connections every year, use crimped over solder - despite the former being more expensive.

Yes there is a reason - it would massively expensive to solder all the connectors of a wiring loom. which is why mass producers always crimp and usually its a perfectly good method. but for something like cycle lights which are exposed to the weather making it difficult to keep water out its far better that the joint is fused as the expense of mass production does not apply to the individual.

jb wrote: ↑17 Mar 2023, 2:10pm

Airsporter1st wrote: ↑17 Mar 2023, 9:47am

jb wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023, 12:43pm

I fail to see how a soldered joint is not far preferable, I can see there may be times when its not possible or practical but to have the wire and spade fused together is to guarantee a connection permanently. a sleeve will help with vibration fatigue if that's a problem that will ever effect a cycle. I only ever had a problem when I tried bonding the frame and fork together with a short bit of cable - the articulation eventually broke the wire despite having curled it up like a telephone wire.

There is reason why the auto industry, which must produce billions of wiring connections every year, use crimped over solder - despite the former being more expensive.

Yes there is a reason - it would massively expensive to solder all the connectors of a wiring loom. which is why mass producers always crimp and usually its a perfectly good method. but for something like cycle lights which are exposed to the weather making it difficult to keep water out its far better that the joint is fused as the expense of mass production does not apply to the individual.

Take your pick then tell people who chose the other one they are doing it wrong if your personality requires it

alexnharvey wrote: ↑17 Mar 2023, 11:09pm

jb wrote: ↑17 Mar 2023, 2:10pm

Airsporter1st wrote: ↑17 Mar 2023, 9:47am
There is reason why the auto industry, which must produce billions of wiring connections every year, use crimped over solder - despite the former being more expensive.

Yes there is a reason - it would massively expensive to solder all the connectors of a wiring loom. which is why mass producers always crimp and usually its a perfectly good method. but for something like cycle lights which are exposed to the weather making it difficult to keep water out its far better that the joint is fused as the expense of mass production does not apply to the individual.

Take your pick then tell people who chose the other one they are doing it wrong if your personality requires it

?
I require nothing but decent lights, a good pub & stimulating conversation....