Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
36%
18-20
24
39%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 61

Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Ben@Forest »

mjr wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 10:22am
Ben@Forest wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 8:03am Not an expert on home heating (though l know that around 2008 fitting a wood pellet boiler into my house was an impractical proposition) but interesting view from Telegraph article:
Have you no scientific bone in your body? The article is chock full of nonsense.
Why would l know? What is the nonsense? I do know l live in a small Victorian semi-detached house of 9 inch brick walls (no cavity) and there isn't really anywhere the 1m2 external pump would fit (at ground level).

At the moment l, and other householders where I live are trying to sort out a sewerage system (we are not on mains sewerage) which complies with the most recent rules. It is clear that when the government/EA devised these rules they did not fully understand the complexities and challenges it might present to householders (and frankly they have admitted as much and had to change rules regarding the implementation). It would be of no surprise to me if the government or its agencies did not fully appreciate the challenges of heat pumps in older houses.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by roubaixtuesday »

pete75 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 2:45pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 2:15pm
pete75 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 12:33pm
Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?
I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust, and that's without taking the installation costs into account.

For those on LPG or oil, annual variations in prices mean that it’s difficult to give an exact estimate of annual heating costs. For example, heating oil has typically fluctuated between 40-65 pence per litre over the last five-year period, with a general upward trend in price. Unless you can buy oil or LPG at the very cheapest time of the year to cover your entire annual use, heat pumps should save you money on running costs assuming a well-designed system is installed.

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice ... eat-pumps/
Is that taking into account the £20,000 plus installation costs I've been quoted or the recent vast increase in electricity prices?

Here are figures from the Energy Saving Trust - October 2022 prices. Oil has fallen a lot since then, electriciyu hasn't.

heat1.JPG
I think if you're going to claim something specific from a particular organisation, providing a link to that specific claim would help.

AFAICT the Energy Saving Trust have not claimed what you say they have, as per the quote I provided. But I may well have missed something.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 3:11pm Others had no inkling of yet another energy crisis.
I hope we can all agree that the knowledge that fossil fuels are a finite resource has been around for many decades, and that climate change is a major threat likewise.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by pete75 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 3:38pm
pete75 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 2:45pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 2:15pm

For those on LPG or oil, annual variations in prices mean that it’s difficult to give an exact estimate of annual heating costs. For example, heating oil has typically fluctuated between 40-65 pence per litre over the last five-year period, with a general upward trend in price. Unless you can buy oil or LPG at the very cheapest time of the year to cover your entire annual use, heat pumps should save you money on running costs assuming a well-designed system is installed.

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice ... eat-pumps/
Is that taking into account the £20,000 plus installation costs I've been quoted or the recent vast increase in electricity prices?

Here are figures from the Energy Saving Trust - October 2022 prices. Oil has fallen a lot since then, electriciyu hasn't.

heat1.JPG
I think if you're going to claim something specific from a particular organisation, providing a link to that specific claim would help.

AFAICT the Energy Saving Trust have not claimed what you say they have, as per the quote I provided. But I may well have missed something.
What I posted was a graphic from the Energy Saving Trust which showed a "negative" saving of £135 for a heat pump over a modern A rated oil boiler. Is that not a claim or factual illustration that an oil boiler costs less to run? In case you missed it the first time, here it is again
heat1.JPG
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

853 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 1:41pm
Coming back to the UK's older housing stock, what should the owners of Victorian terraced houses do if they want to use a 'greener' form of heating, but have little in the way of savings and are on modest earnings?

Not a trick question, I'd just like to see what constructive advice our members with knowledge/experience of the subject would offer the potentially millions of people in such as position.
A very sensible question, one which government would do well to consider more carefully. A masonry stove or rocket mass heater (two different but similar heating solutions) would be ideal, but I'm not sure they're even recognised by UK planning.

The heating inside Victorian houses relied more on radiant heat than with a typical central heating system using radiators to warm the air, which meant the air temperature could be lower for a given level of comfort than is the case today. There was usually someone in all day, keeping at least one fire in and so the hearth and chimney structure remained warmed, returning this heat to the room(s).

Double glazing, hanging drapes on walls, reducing/stopping draughts and using radiant heat would be my advice - underfloor heating with concrete slab is good, powered by a heat pump.
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Biospace wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 4:33pm
853 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 1:41pm
Coming back to the UK's older housing stock, what should the owners of Victorian terraced houses do if they want to use a 'greener' form of heating, but have little in the way of savings and are on modest earnings?

Not a trick question, I'd just like to see what constructive advice our members with knowledge/experience of the subject would offer the potentially millions of people in such as position.
A very sensible question, one which government would do well to consider more carefully. A masonry stove or rocket mass heater (two different but similar heating solutions) would be ideal, but I'm not sure they're even recognised by UK planning.

The heating inside Victorian houses relied more on radiant heat than with a typical central heating system using radiators to warm the air, which meant the air temperature could be lower for a given level of comfort than is the case today. There was usually someone in all day, keeping at least one fire in, and so the hearth and chimney structure remained warmed, returning this heat to the room(s).

Double glazing, hanging drapes on walls, reducing/stopping draughts and using radiant heat would be my advice - underfloor heating with concrete slab is good, powered by a heat pump.
There would be millions fewer if the current lot hadn't stopped insulating houses.

That's the advice though, it doesn't matter what your heat source is if you're throwing it all away as soon as it gets in the house.

Tackle draughts, add secondary glazing and curtains, insulate the loft - and the loft hatch...
I built my own smart heating controls, and that's helped, though I appreciate it's a niche skillset.

using less is greener than just changing heat source, and if you don't have the capital (or ability to raise capital) then it's the only option.
If you've got to replace a heating system anyway (that's ~ where I am) that's the time to look at the long term costs/savings and see if you can make it work.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

I forgot to add that ensuring there is no excess structural damp - a damp house will leak heat fast.

If they're heated as intended and dry, they can be very comfortable places, but I've been in plenty with radiators all really hot without the house feeling warm. As I say, radiant heat - it directly heats bodies rather than the air.
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al_yrpal
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

My neighbour in the other half of this 1799 house pays a lot more than we do for his heating. The former occupants of our house fitted new hardwood sliding sashes everywhere which fit really well and dont give rise to draughts. They insulated the roof space to todays spec of 270mm in 2011. They fitted a porch to the outside door with good draught proofing. There are modern low mass steel radiators.
In my neighbours house he has the old cast iron radiators fed by large pipes many of which are uninsulated. The windows are old and leaky and although there are internal shutters the house is cold and much more expensive to heat.
We both have gas fired condensing boilers and we have a gas Aga which runs 24/7 in winter spring and autumn. In addition our heating runs all day whereas his is switched down in the daytime when they are all at work/school.
So good draft proofing is obviously important as are decent responsive radiators.
I suppose we could chuck to Aga out and install a heat pump in its place. Over the wifes dead body I guess?

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 4:33pm
853 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 1:41pm
Coming back to the UK's older housing stock, what should the owners of Victorian terraced houses do if they want to use a 'greener' form of heating, but have little in the way of savings and are on modest earnings?

Not a trick question, I'd just like to see what constructive advice our members with knowledge/experience of the subject would offer the potentially millions of people in such as position.
A very sensible question, one which government would do well to consider more carefully. A masonry stove or rocket mass heater (two different but similar heating solutions) would be ideal, but I'm not sure they're even recognised by UK planning.

The heating inside Victorian houses relied more on radiant heat than with a typical central heating system using radiators to warm the air, which meant the air temperature could be lower for a given level of comfort than is the case today. There was usually someone in all day, keeping at least one fire in and so the hearth and chimney structure remained warmed, returning this heat to the room(s).

Double glazing, hanging drapes on walls, reducing/stopping draughts and using radiant heat would be my advice - underfloor heating with concrete slab is good, powered by a heat pump.
They would usually have a cooking range on the go most of the time too. Goose feather beds ,a much warmer way of sleeping than on a modern mattress. Woolen blankets and eiderdowns on top , again very warm.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

pete75 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 5:42pm They would usually have a cooking range on the go most of the time too. Goose feather beds ,a much warmer way of sleeping than on a modern mattress. Woolen blankets and eiderdowns on top , again very warm.
I've been in Hungarian and Russian peasant homes in mid winter, they've been more comfortable than many a modern British house in winter or summer. Better food, too.
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

pete75 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 4:22pm
What I posted was a graphic from the Energy Saving Trust which showed a "negative" saving of £135 for a heat pump over a modern A rated oil boiler. Is that not a claim or factual illustration that an oil boiler costs less to run? In case you missed it the first time, here it is again
Given that ground source (deep borehole) is a bit more efficient than air source, it would likely just about beat all the other options.

One way to look at it is that high efficiency gas boilers are a little like the final generation of diesel and petrol cars. Marvellously engineered, but the swansong of soon to be obsolete technology.

Heat pumps are the obvious way forward, but the cost needs to be brought down in the UK, and the electricity production made green.

With our electricity bill here, they tell you how the electricity was made and it's generally only about 3% fossil fuel.

Every week I see new ground source heat pumps being drilled. And keep in mind that population density is extremely low here - the nearest four council areas are the size of Lancashire with 90 times fewer people per square kilometre (5000 square km, 55,000 people). Apparently, the average cost of installation is between £8000-16000.

In short, sort out the insulation in UK houses, regulate the installers so that they stop ripping everyone off, sort out the electricity production and Bob's your mother's brother.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by pete75 »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 6:21am
pete75 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 4:22pm
What I posted was a graphic from the Energy Saving Trust which showed a "negative" saving of £135 for a heat pump over a modern A rated oil boiler. Is that not a claim or factual illustration that an oil boiler costs less to run? In case you missed it the first time, here it is again
Given that ground source (deep borehole) is a bit more efficient than air source, it would likely just about beat all the other options.

One way to look at it is that high efficiency gas boilers are a little like the final generation of diesel and petrol cars. Marvellously engineered, but the swansong of soon to be obsolete technology.

Heat pumps are the obvious way forward, but the cost needs to be brought down in the UK, and the electricity production made green.

With our electricity bill here, they tell you how the electricity was made and it's generally only about 3% fossil fuel.

Every week I see new ground source heat pumps being drilled. And keep in mind that population density is extremely low here - the nearest four council areas are the size of Lancashire with 90 times fewer people per square kilometre (5000 square km, 55,000 people). Apparently, the average cost of installation is between £8000-16000.

In short, sort out the insulation in UK houses, regulate the installers so that they stop ripping everyone off, sort out the electricity production and Bob's your mother's brother.
Do you think that will change the cost factor in favour of heat pumps, taking into account the £20,000+ I've been quoted for installation. Amongst other things we'd need fifteen radiators replacing. It's not unlikely that when heat pumps become more common the fall off in demand for oil will lead to it costing less.

At the moment I cannot see any reason to switch to a heat pump.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

pete75 wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 8:04am
Jon in Sweden wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 6:21am
pete75 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 4:22pm
What I posted was a graphic from the Energy Saving Trust which showed a "negative" saving of £135 for a heat pump over a modern A rated oil boiler. Is that not a claim or factual illustration that an oil boiler costs less to run? In case you missed it the first time, here it is again
Given that ground source (deep borehole) is a bit more efficient than air source, it would likely just about beat all the other options.

One way to look at it is that high efficiency gas boilers are a little like the final generation of diesel and petrol cars. Marvellously engineered, but the swansong of soon to be obsolete technology.

Heat pumps are the obvious way forward, but the cost needs to be brought down in the UK, and the electricity production made green.

With our electricity bill here, they tell you how the electricity was made and it's generally only about 3% fossil fuel.

Every week I see new ground source heat pumps being drilled. And keep in mind that population density is extremely low here - the nearest four council areas are the size of Lancashire with 90 times fewer people per square kilometre (5000 square km, 55,000 people). Apparently, the average cost of installation is between £8000-16000.

In short, sort out the insulation in UK houses, regulate the installers so that they stop ripping everyone off, sort out the electricity production and Bob's your mother's brother.
Do you think that will change the cost factor in favour of heat pumps, taking into account the £20,000+ I've been quoted for installation. Amongst other things we'd need fifteen radiators replacing. It's not unlikely that when heat pumps become more common the fall off in demand for oil will lead to it costing less.

At the moment I cannot see any reason to switch to a heat pump.
The replacement of the radiators goes some way to explaining the extremely high quote you've had. I'd question if it's necessary though as our 1957 house has it's original radiators running in conjunction with the heat pump.

Heating oil here in Sweden is about £2 a litre. Don't underestimate the government in the UK's ability to tax it (and gas) into oblivion.

Fundamentally, solid fuel heating is 3-4 times less efficient than a heat pump. It just makes logical sense to use them. The fact that the UK can't get it's collection head around this seems boggling. Literally 95% of new heating installations here (in an area of Sweden that is not affluent) are heat pumps.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Whatever the actual truth of the matter the press in the UK keep publishing negative articles about failed heat pump installations and those who have had failed installations seem quite voluble on the subject.
The same goes for EVs with quite prominent personalities writing about various bad experiences. This leads to a generally held conclusion that we aint there yet...

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

al_yrpal wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 8:49am Whatever the actual truth of the matter the press in the UK keep publishing negative articles about failed heat pump installations and those who have had failed installations seem quite voluble on the subject.
The same goes for EVs with quite prominent personalities writing about various bad experiences. This leads to a generally held conclusion that we aint there yet...

Al
Half the issue is that the UK regards heat pumps as some sort of miraculous new technology, when the truth is the exact opposite.

We've seen houses here with 25 year old ground source heat pumps.

There really isn't much grant support for installing them either, so given the lack of subsidy, there has to be a good reason why in a country with cold winters that they are the default choice.

The UK has a long and dirty history with fossil fuels. It can't be beyond the realms of reason that lobbying interests are behind much of the negative press regarding sustainable tech like heat pumps?
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