Heat in the home

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
36%
18-20
24
39%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 61

Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

If the attitude of the British really is to fit air conditioning for houses then that is a desperate situation, aided by lazy design and the acceptance that it's easier and cheaper to bolt on remedies rather than build in good design.

How many more offices with large glass areas are going to be built because they look good in architects' eyes, which will mean aircon is obligatory? Not just here, but around the world? Billions? What is the environmental cost/embodied energy in the units and the solar panels? We're simply speeding up our own demise.

The comment referencing the large number of cars with aircon as standard is a red herring, since a car is not much like most houses. While a car's aircon is welcome if stuck in a long traffic queue on a very hot day, I found I was switching it off in the hot weather last summer - it just made everywhere else seem hotter than it was and I could remain perfectly comfortable with a good airflow.

Today the 'fresh' air fed into cars passes through a heat exchanger and many feet of ducting buried under the hot dashboard and not nearly so refreshing as the blast of outside air which used to be fed directly to the fresh air vents. French cars in particular were very pleasant even in hot weather because of wonderful ventilation and choice of seat material. I've ridden many miles in Africa in old Citroëns and Mercedes (and Peugeots) without once feeling too hot.
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Biospace wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 2:51pm If the attitude of the British really is to fit air conditioning for houses then that is a desperate situation, aided by lazy design and the acceptance that it's easier and cheaper to bolt on remedies rather than build in good design.

How many more offices with large glass areas are going to be built because they look good in architects' eyes, which will mean aircon is obligatory? Not just here, but around the world? Billions? What is the environmental cost/embodied energy in the units and the solar panels? We're simply speeding up our own demise.

The comment referencing the large number of cars with aircon as standard is a red herring, since a car is not much like most houses. While a car's aircon is welcome if stuck in a long traffic queue on a very hot day, I found I was switching it off in the hot weather last summer - it just made everywhere else seem hotter than it was and I could remain perfectly comfortable with a good airflow.

Today the 'fresh' air fed into cars passes through a heat exchanger and many feet of ducting buried under the hot dashboard and not nearly so refreshing as the blast of outside air which used to be fed directly to the fresh air vents. French cars in particular were very pleasant even in hot weather because of wonderful ventilation and choice of seat material.
I really don't see what the issue would be with air/air heat pumps.

For 6-8 months of the year (depending on where you are in the UK), use it for heating. It can make use of sustainably produced electricity (rather than natural gas or oil) and the coefficient of performance at 3:1 means you're getting 3kw of heat for 1kw of electricity. They are also extremely cheap.

And then for the 3-8 weeks of uncomfortably hot weather in summer, use it for cooling. The coefficient of performance still applies and it's economical.

You can do an awful lot for natural cooling with good design, but British housing and good design are almost mutually exclusive.
axel_knutt
Posts: 2880
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by axel_knutt »

Indeed, aircon is the last resort for when all else has been done, making it the first option is like building nuclear power stations whilst arresting people who campaign for more insulation. The solar panels that power the aircon could have been used for something more constructive, such as powering flats with no roof to put them on, or reducing the environmental burden of producing them in the first place.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

axel_knutt wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 3:13pm Indeed, aircon is the last resort for when all else has been done, making it the first option is like building nuclear power stations whilst arresting people who campaign for more insulation. The solar panels that power the aircon could have been used for something more constructive, such as powering flats with no roof to put them on, or reducing the environmental burden of producing them in the first place.
I agree, for the most part.

But we have to deal with the fact that we're working with a legacy of terribly built houses in a changing climate.

Fundamentally though, we absolutely have to stop the mass builders dominating the UK housing market with utterly dreadful houses that are not built as homes, but are instead built to make money for shareholders.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 2:58pmI really don't see what the issue would be with air/air heat pumps.

You can do an awful lot for natural cooling with good design, but British housing and good design are almost mutually exclusive.
I agree that British housing and good design can be mutually exclusive, the result of a complex set of factors.

However, the whole world doesn't have heating, let alone a heat pump - or two heat pumps, as you do. For effective air conditioning, many will install an a2a pump in addition to their a2w one. Suggesting that because something as yet to be ubiquitous runs on renewable energy and therefore open for mass consumption could yet have a dire effect on carbon emissions.

Designing buildings which will overheat without air conditioning is not a very enlightened way forwards.

Jon in Sweden wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 3:17pmBut we have to deal with the fact that we're working with a legacy of terribly built houses in a changing climate.
We are, but not many posts ago you were suggesting that the way to deal with thermally inefficient housing was to destroy it and rebuild. Why should it be any different for buildings which routinely require energy to cool, rather than heat?

I'd far prefer to see post 1960s buildings demolished rather than pre 1880s ones. It's meant to be a warming world, innit?
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Biospace wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 3:35pm
Jon in Sweden wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 2:58pmI really don't see what the issue would be with air/air heat pumps.

You can do an awful lot for natural cooling with good design, but British housing and good design are almost mutually exclusive.
I agree that British housing and good design can be mutually exclusive, the result of a complex set of factors.

However, the whole world doesn't have heating, let alone a heat pump - or two heat pumps, as you do. For effective air conditioning, many will install an a2a pump in addition to their a2w one. Suggesting that because something as yet to be ubiquitous runs on renewable energy and therefore open for mass consumption could yet have a dire effect on carbon emissions.

Designing buildings which will overheat without air conditioning is not a very enlightened way forwards.

Jon in Sweden wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 3:17pmBut we have to deal with the fact that we're working with a legacy of terribly built houses in a changing climate.
We are, but not many posts ago you were suggesting that the way to deal with thermally inefficient housing was to destroy it and rebuild. Why should it be any different for buildings which routinely require energy to cool, rather than heat?

I'd far prefer to see post 1960s buildings demolished rather than pre 1880s ones. It's meant to be a warming world, innit?
I don't think that we fundamentally disagree.

I like heat pumps because they are so simple. Not modern technology, by any stretch, and also increasingly cheap. Ikea are offering installed air/air HPs in parts of Sweden for less than £1000.

I suppose I look at artificial cooling capability as an insurance policy. I don't want to have to use it, but I'm glad for it when I do. In Scotland, we never had any issues with overheating. We had quite a thermally efficient old cottage (as was the comment of a friend of ours, who thermally imaged it in winter once) and the highest temperature we ever recorded in summer upstairs was 23.5c. We still used 35-40 cubic metres of firewood a year though, as Scottish winters are long with a lot of days around freezing, with strong wind and rain.

As regards what I'd like to see demolished and replaced - thermally inefficient houses that have no architectural significance or aesthetic appeal. Which I guess does cover a lot of what is built post 1960!

I wonder if the British public will start to educate themselves about good building practice now that energy and mortgages are so expensive? Your average Persimmon home is awful, which ever way you look at it. Unless the market demand changes, or they are heavily legislated, the mass builders will keep pumping out the same rubbish.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

£1000 installed. :shock: I'm coming to live in Sweden! Prices will go through the roof here if the government chips in, as they did with the RHI.

I agree heat pumps are wonderful, but they do need setting up carefully for the British climate. The contrast with what you're now experiencing after years of poorly insulated English properties must be remarkable, I love the detail the Scandinavians apply to doors and windows. I also love how dry everything is when it's -10C for week after week.

Damp is a massive problem for British houses, it doesn't have to appear through internal paintwork for it to be sucking heat out of a house a lot quicker than otherwise. Our last house was really old, had very thick stone walls ('solid' but with rubble infill), was in good order, dry and remarkably airtight. It would sit out a typical British 'cold snap' for up to four or five days without you noticing, similarly for very hot weather.
User avatar
853
Posts: 261
Joined: 23 Sep 2022, 6:01pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by 853 »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 4:57pm
I wonder if the British public will start to educate themselves about good building practice now that energy and mortgages are so expensive? Your average Persimmon home is awful, which ever way you look at it. Unless the market demand changes, or they are heavily legislated, the mass builders will keep pumping out the same rubbish.
That's the real problem; for the majority of the British public it would seem that as long as they have a (leased) Mercedes or Audi, an up to date iphone, and a detached home, they don't give a **** about anything else.

They're building a new estate close to me on what was good-quality agricultural land. Ninety percent of them are detached, 3,4 and 5 bed homes and they all have gas central heating. Rows of them, many with detached garages, seemingly only a metre or so apart.

We have a shortage of land to build on, a shortage of houses to buy and we're supposedly in a cost of living crisis. So why doesn't the government say to the builders that ninety percent of what they build has to be terraced flats and houses?

Jon in Sweden you are correct, but I think the only way we will get change is if the government legislates it; the majority of the British public seem quite happy to buy expensive rubbish.
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Biospace wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 6:36pm £1000 installed. :shock: I'm coming to live in Sweden! Prices will go through the roof here if the government chips in, as they did with the RHI.

I agree heat pumps are wonderful, but they do need setting up carefully for the British climate. The contrast with what you're now experiencing after years of poorly insulated English properties must be remarkable, I love the detail the Scandinavians apply to doors and windows. I also love how dry everything is when it's -10C for week after week.

Damp is a massive problem for British houses, it doesn't have to appear through internal paintwork for it to be sucking heat out of a house a lot quicker than otherwise. Our last house was really old, had very thick stone walls ('solid' but with rubble infill), was in good order, dry and remarkably airtight. It would sit out a typical British 'cold snap' for up to four or five days without you noticing, similarly for very hot weather.
My mistake. Including the green reduction (you get some of the money you pay as tax back from the state for green improvements to your house), it's £1141.

https://www.ikea.com/se/sv/home-energy- ... eat-pumps/

The dryness here is really a relief. After 4 years in Devon, I had a lifetime's worth of rain. We were 4 years in Cullompton (just north of Exeter) and coming from Scotland, we were amazed by how much damper it was in winter there. You couldn't leave anything in an unheated outbuilding or shed without it going mouldy. Any internal face of an exterior wall in the house with obstructed airflow (a coat rack with coats on it, for example) would suffer mould. And we heated the house very thoroughly.

Winter 19/20, we had 6.5 months of rain. The longest was 3 days dry. 1800mm of precipitation recorded at our house. And where we are now, the local weather station is the third driest in Sweden, recording just 360mm last year!

There are still some poorer quality houses around, many needing renovation. But the house prices are so low here that there is no market for buying a doer upper and flipping it. We went to see a reasonable condition house today for friends who are moving here. It was just over 100sq m primary living space (3 beds), 120sq m secondary (basement/garage). Decent sized plot, needing a bit of tlc, but you could move right in. Older geothermal heating. It was listed at £68k, but it's very overpriced for this market and I doubt it'd make more than £50k at the moment.

It's minus 6 and falling at the moment. Snow forecast for tomorrow. Fun on studded tyres at the weekend in prospect :D
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

853 wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 7:29pm
That's the real problem; for the majority of the British public it would seem that as long as they have a (leased) Mercedes or Audi, an up to date iphone, and a detached home, they don't give a **** about anything else.

They're building a new estate close to me on what was good-quality agricultural land. Ninety percent of them are detached, 3,4 and 5 bed homes and they all have gas central heating. Rows of them, many with detached garages, seemingly only a metre or so apart.

We have a shortage of land to build on, a shortage of houses to buy and we're supposedly in a cost of living crisis. So why doesn't the government say to the builders that ninety percent of what they build has to be terraced flats and houses?

Jon in Sweden you are correct, but I think the only way we will get change is if the government legislates it; the majority of the British public seem quite happy to buy expensive rubbish.
It's the total opposite here. Houses are generally quite nice, and very spacious, but cars are hilariously rusty and scruffy. We even bought an old Golf Estate as a run around that's in good mechanical condition but has rust that'd never pass an MOT in the UK. People just don't care. I like that.

The bottom of the road where we used to live in Devon had a 107 house development being built just as we left. Our merchant banker of a landlord sold the land to one of the big builders to add a few more million to his bank balance. No infrastructure to support the extra 500 people who'll live there. The town is already total gridlocked twice a day. And there another 500 houses going up on other sites on the west side of the town too, adding in total 25% to the town's population. They can't even get a relief road built.

My belief regarding the UK housing market (excuse me whilst I grab my soapbox) is that people never really see the house that they're in as anything other than a stepping stone. If you don't emotionally invest in your house as your home, treat it as a stop gap and possibly an investment, you'll put up with many more shortcomings.

Living somewhere where there is no money in property completely eliminates that. People mostly look at the practicality, comfort and running costs of a home before considering it, which means that most houses are practical, comfortable and have low running costs. Otherwise, they are sold for next to nothing, which allows a budget for upgrades. Cheapest house I've seen for sale here (structurally sound, but not much more than a shell) was £4k. That was the start price, but it still went for less than £15k, I believe.

https://www.expressen.se/leva-och-bo/he ... 00-kronor/
User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 11537
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Britain is a magnet for immigrants, 1 million a year for the next few years its predicted. Add to that the trend to more one person households. That means at least 300,000 extra houses per annum. We still arent building enough thus prices increase. Cheap housing means few want to live in the locality, obviously the situation in some areas in Sweden. Its all about supply and demand
Lived in Cullompton until fairly recently, what is happening re new housing estates there is happening all over the country.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 6:58am Very few cars have heat pumps. It's coming through, but only in a few models. The reason I brought up that point was to illustrate that we take AC for granted and are fully accepting of it in cars, but not houses.
Do we and are we? I think car air-con is a rarely-needed feature that is yet another expensive subsystem to maintain, but it's getting difficult to buy a car without it. I suspect it's in the same category as touchscreen controls and electronic handbrakes that most people hate but not enough to completely rule out a car with them.
I applaud your ability to manage the temperature within your house, but that's not possible for everyone. Not everyone has the time to manage solar gain.
Indeed. That's what I mean about houses having bad controls. It would be far better to retrofit automatic ventilation and shutters before deciding you need to strap energyvore air-con onto houses.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

mjr wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 1:40pm I think car air-con is a rarely-needed feature that is yet another expensive subsystem to maintain, but it's getting difficult to buy a car without it.
In large part a result of the world market and supposed economies of scale, or another Americanization we could well do without, depending on how you see it. The argument is that it is more fuel efficient once travelling at over 50-60mph than having open windows, but with it comes so many annoying features -
  • generally poor fresh air direct ventilation (blows luke warm once the dashboard has heated up under the sun) meaning you need aircon when otherwise you wouldn't
  • increased fuel consumption (2-4mpg) through driving the compressor
  • increased fuel consumption because of the added weight
  • added complication to servicing - compressor, drier, condensor, expansion valve, pipework get in the way under the bonnet, V (auxiliary) belts become increasingly awkward to replace
In a motorway jam on a very hot day it's great, otherwise I prefer natural ventilation and higher levels of insulation than standard - something EVs generally have in an attempt to minimise heat loss and so maximise range.

I once drove a Citroën Dyane across France and through parts of N Africa in searing heat, with sliding side windows and enormous fresh air vents it was a delight. The fabric roof was kept in place through the heat of the day, then rolled back as the sun lowered. If only cars were as practical, comfortable and fun today!
pwa
Posts: 17367
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by pwa »

I try to be disciplined about air-con use in the car. But it does have some real benefits that make it sensible in certain circumstances. Firstly, it makes it easier to demist the windscreen, and makes a better, cleaner job of it than wiping with a cloth. And secondly, in uncomfortably warm conditions it is said that using the air-con costs you less fuel (and therefore emissions) than driving along with open windows, except at low speeds. It is one of those things that is costing you nothing until you use it, and you can be selective about when you do that. I make sure it is switched off when there isn't a good reason for it to be on.

I too have a memory of driving across France, but in my case I would have loved to have had air-con. Stuck in traffic jams on French motorways as the French were going on their summer holidays, with 30c outside and probably something above that in our metal box. I admit that the journey was a bad idea, as was the timing, but air-con would have been wonderful.
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

I have no qualms about using air con in my car. Personally, I don't have much of a tolerance for heat in high summer. I had epilepsy as a kid, and heat was one of the main triggers. I'm very grateful that I now live a 90 second cycle ride from a wonderful lake for swimming in.

Natural ventilation in a vehicle gets you so far, but it's far from ideal. I drove back from Sweden to Devon last June in sweltering conditions in our VW T5 before getting the a/c regassed and is was pretty grim. Windows had to be fairly wide open all the way.

On the topic of home heating, we had minus 9c last night. Gloriously sunny and minus 5 now at 10:15. The fire is ticking over in the kitchen, the air/air heat pump is doing the same in the living room set to 18c) and the ground source heat pump is set to 15c and providing background warmth.
Post Reply