Heat in the home

[pete75]

At a guess most installed in Scandinavia will be ground source not air source like most here.

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https://www.statista.com/statistics/864 ... on-sweden/

I was just going by what Jon in Sweden said about the number of drilling rigs he sees in his part of the country when heat pumps are being installed. If I had one installed I'd go for ground source.

[ANTONISH]

I don't believe many people genuinely resent a new technology which is more efficient than the old, but perhaps what they do resent is those who start talking about how traditional fuels will be rapidly become unaffordable, or soon have a restricted supply. I can still easily source paraffin for camping stoves and although small volumes cost more than they once did, it's still about the same cost as diesel, decades after Primus stoves and their like went out of fashion.

Government has an important role to play in the uptake of heat pumps so that people actively seek them out rather than shying away due to excessively high costs - for a technology which gives 3 or 4 times more energy out than energy in, it surely shouldn't be too difficult?

Given that there are millions in this country without the resources to fund the installation of an ASHP system I think it may be very difficult.
I don't think people are shying away (ok I am), they are unable to fit such a scheme because they haven't the resources to do so.
Is the government prepared to invest the vast sums needed to enable them to do so? - including the upgrading of insulation and radiators?
I take your point that ASHP is very efficient as it stands - but in overall terms it uses electricity the generation of which from fossil fuels is about 60% efficient compared to using fossil fuels in a domestic boiler about 90% - so in overall terms the efficiency of ASHP is lower than you quote - even if the 4 times (400%) figure is achieved - which I doubt.
Electricity would need to be at a much lower price because even with the high efficiency of an ASHP it will still cost more to run than an existing fossil fuel boiler.
Much of our existing housing stock was built to very low insulation standards - that should be a priority.

[[XAP]Bob]

At a guess most installed in Scandinavia will be ground source not air source like most here.

Capture.JPG


https://www.statista.com/statistics/864 ... on-sweden/

I was just going by what Jon in Sweden said about the number of drilling rigs he sees in his part of the country when heat pumps are being installed. If I had one installed I'd go for ground source.

What you were really doing was suggesting that air source heat pumps can't cope with mild British winters when they are commonly used in Scandanavia, which has far harder winters than we do.

[Jon in Sweden]

Given that there are millions in this country without the resources to fund the installation of an ASHP system I think it may be very difficult.
I don't think people are shying away (ok I am), they are unable to fit such a scheme because they haven't the resources to do so.
Is the government prepared to invest the vast sums needed to enable them to do so? - including the upgrading of insulation and radiators?
I take your point that ASHP is very efficient as it stands - but in overall terms it uses electricity the generation of which from fossil fuels is about 60% efficient compared to using fossil fuels in a domestic boiler about 90% - so in overall terms the efficiency of ASHP is lower than you quote - even if the 4 times (400%) figure is achieved - which I doubt.
Electricity would need to be at a much lower price because even with the high efficiency of an ASHP it will still cost more to run than an existing fossil fuel boiler.
Much of our existing housing stock was built to very low insulation standards - that should be a priority.

Electricity generation from fossil fuels is something that needs to be eliminated. The UK has a wealth of sustainable and renewable energy potential that isn't being properly exploited.

The UK is just being very slow to ditch a gas addiction that is two generations in the making. It'll come, but I think most of Europe is going to get there first.

As regards the frequency of air source and ground source being installed here - air source is less demanding of heavy plant and can be installed quite quickly. You don't really notice those installations whereas the heavy drilling rigs are hard to miss!

I stress though that the area we live in isn't affluent. The average house price here is only about £80k, if that. But people still choose to install heat pumps as the default choice.

[pete75]

Capture.JPG


https://www.statista.com/statistics/864 ... on-sweden/

I was just going by what Jon in Sweden said about the number of drilling rigs he sees in his part of the country when heat pumps are being installed. If I had one installed I'd go for ground source.

What you were really doing was suggesting that air source heat pumps can't cope with mild British winters when they are commonly used in Scandanavia, which has far harder winters than we do.

I wonder what insulations standards are like in Sweden compared to here.

Some can and some can't with British winters. There's a local authority near here that is installing them in council houses and many tenants are complaining they don't produce enough heat when it's very cold. I know a heating surveyor who did a lot of work for that authority prior to the scheme being introduced. She said it was doomed to fail in cold weather because many of the properties really needed expensive insulation work and the council wasn't prepared to spend the money to implement her

Now you may say the systems were badly designed and or installed but that seems to be the case with a lot of systems in the UK. Apparently there's a great shortage trained heat pump engineers with only about a third of the number needed. Without enough trained and qualified engineers design and installation will be a bit hit and miss, as it gives a lot of room for cowboy operators. Two edged sword really. People won't have the things put in because they can't find a decent installer and installers not being trained because people aren't having the systems installed.

[ANTONISH]

Electricity generation from fossil fuels is something that needs to be eliminated. The UK has a wealth of sustainable and renewable energy potential that isn't being properly exploited.


I stress though that the area we live in isn't affluent. The average house price here is only about £80k, if that. But people still choose to install heat pumps as the default choice.

Yes the UK has a wealth of sustainable and renewable energy potential that isn't being "properly" exploited.
To properly exploit the potential of this resource we need massive storage capacity.
Sometimes in the UK we get periods of cold, still and overcast weather - as long as two weeks - at such times there isn't much renewable energy available - to cover the shortfall we need storage and a lot of it.
I note that SSE are going to build a new reservoir - the first for many years which will produce 1.5GW when it's ready.
I don't know how long it will produce that 1.5 GW but definitely not for two weeks or probably not 24hrs - in any case it's a very small percentage of our normal electricity demand.
This is the problem with renewables - they can provide huge amounts of energy but not necessarily when it's needed - we can build huge numbers of wind generators and cover every surface with photovoltaic cells but we need comensurate storage and that awaits a solution that isn't anywhere near to being available.

I don't think you can compare house prices in Sweden meaningfully with the UK, the price of a house depends on demand and doesn't equate with disposable income ( in any case the UK housing market is distorted by foreign buyers) - 80k may procure you something in a very poor area in the UK the sort of area where most of the people have very little disposable income, many in private rented accomodation and are unlikely to be in the position to "choose" heat pump installation -
For example I could cross the channel to France and buy a house equating to mine at much less than I could sell for here.
But the population in Northern France isn't commensurably poorer.

[al_yrpal]

Almost every day its possible to read in the press about yet another heat pump disaster. The toxic combination of a punter eager to be greener and a cowboy installer who knows that if he prices in new bigger rads he won't get the job... New estates currently with gas boilers and postage stamp gardens... Air source Heat Pump fans whirring away in tiny spaces annoying the neighbours. It all stacks up to a forthcoming disaster. Its no wonder there is low uptake.

Al

[roubaixtuesday]

Almost every day its possible to read in the press about yet another heat pump disaster.

Please could you provide some specifics?

"The press" is rather all encompassing.

Should be easy enough as it's a daily occurrence.

[[XAP]Bob]

I was just going by what Jon in Sweden said about the number of drilling rigs he sees in his part of the country when heat pumps are being installed. If I had one installed I'd go for ground source.

What you were really doing was suggesting that air source heat pumps can't cope with mild British winters when they are commonly used in Scandanavia, which has far harder winters than we do.

I wonder what insulations standards are like in Sweden compared to here.

Better, but not actually relevant.
The heating load in any house is the same, irrespective of the heat source.

Some can and some can't with British winters. There's a local authority near here that is installing them in council houses and many tenants are complaining they don't produce enough heat when it's very cold. I know a heating surveyor who did a lot of work for that authority prior to the scheme being introduced. She said it was doomed to fail in cold weather because many of the properties really needed expensive insulation work and the council wasn't prepared to spend the money to implement her

Now you may say the systems were badly designed and or installed but that seems to be the case with a lot of systems in the UK. Apparently there's a great shortage trained heat pump engineers with only about a third of the number needed. Without enough trained and qualified engineers design and installation will be a bit hit and miss, as it gives a lot of room for cowboy operators. Two edged sword really. People won't have the things put in because they can't find a decent installer and installers not being trained because people aren't having the systems installed.

So inadequate heating systems are installed and you blame the technology, which is clearly shown to work the world over...
Why am I not shocked?

[[XAP]Bob]

Almost every day its possible to read in the press about yet another heat pump disaster. The toxic combination of a punter eager to be greener and a cowboy installer who knows that if he prices in new bigger rads he won't get the job... New estates currently with gas boilers and postage stamp gardens... Air source Heat Pump fans whirring away in tiny spaces annoying the neighbours. It all stacks up to a forthcoming disaster. Its no wonder there is low uptake.

Al

Almost every day people make stuff up, and complain about things they don't understand... How many people get confused by bike gears, and try to shift a derailleur when at a standstill - clearly they "don't work".

The radiator issue is interesting - I know what my heating load is, and I know what flow temperature I currently run at (and have run at all winter as a test). I understand that most people know neither of those things, but it really ought to be the start of any planning.
A reputable installer told me I'd need to upgrade three radiators in order to run at a target flow temperature higher than my current flow temperature - I have no doubt that that's what their calculations show, but I have the data to show otherwise.

[offroader]

I don't believe many people genuinely resent a new technology which is more efficient than the old, but perhaps what they do resent is those who start talking about how traditional fuels will be rapidly become unaffordable, or soon have a restricted supply. I can still easily source paraffin for camping stoves and although small volumes cost more than they once did, it's still about the same cost as diesel, decades after Primus stoves and their like went out of fashion.

Government has an important role to play in the uptake of heat pumps so that people actively seek them out rather than shying away due to excessively high costs - for a technology which gives 3 or 4 times more energy out than energy in, it surely shouldn't be too difficult?

I certainly don't resent new technology. In fact as an electronics engineer of some 30 years I have my embracing of new technology to thank for my current relatively well off lifestyle.

Perhaps it is my experience which drives my skepticism. I've seen many genuine technologies fail because they weren't the right tool for the situation.

Heat pumps are without doubt impressive. However, forcing an expensive heat pump installation into thermally inefficient old housing stock when electricity is both expensive and environmentally damaging just doesn't seem like the best solution to me.
If you (not you personally, the world in general) address the current shortcomings then people will choose heat pumps

For me the die is cast. A new gas boiler is on order. I will immediately reduce my carbon footprint and running costs significantly. In 5 years time the boiler will have nearly paid itself off leaving me in a position to reconsider my options. Maybe ill use the money not spent on an ASHP to add some solar power and carry out some thermal efficiency upgrades.
My experience in tech also leads me to believe that in 5 years time ASHP technology will have improved significantly, reducing the cost of installation and ownership.

It's not the immediate switch to zero emissions life which seems the only way to appease the green lobby. Its my pragmatic stepping stone

[axel_knutt]

I know what flow temperature I currently run at

Are you actually measuring it? What you set and what you get are two entirely different kettles of fish. As soon as the roomstat satisfies, the controller algorithm in my boiler turns the flow temperature right down so that it's only just enough to maintain the roomstat regardless of what the boiler stat's set to.

My stat's set to 60, but you can see that the flow drops back to 40 regardless.

[[XAP]Bob]

"It's not the immediate switch to zero emissions life which seems the only way to appease the green lobby. Its my pragmatic stepping stone"

And that's fine - but many seem to forget that heat pumps and BEVs (whilst the grid isn't great) are also stepping stones, but they're stepping stones which will keep moving as the grid evolves - not something fossil fuels will ever do.

Prioritising capital investment between insulation, panels/batteries, and a heat pump is going to be a balancing act for all but the very wealthiest (who will probably do none of the above )

[[XAP]Bob]

I know what flow temperature I currently run at

Are you actually measuring it? What you set and what you get are two entirely different kettles of fish. As soon as the roomstat satisfies, the controller algorithm in my boiler turns the flow temperature right down so that it's only just enough to maintain the roomstat regardless of what the boiler stat's set to.

My stat's set to 60, but you can see that the flow drops back to 40 regardless.
Flow Temp Jan 2020.png

Yes, I am actually measuring it using a DS18B20 thermally coupled to the output pipe of the boiler, and wrapped in insulation to ensure that I get as good a reading as possible. My boiler is 18 years old, and whilst it does have a circuit board there is precious little in the way of intelligence.
The control knob is just marked "low" to "high" with a "volume triangle" split into three and wrapped around the control.

I have noticed that the radiators are significantly more pleasant this year - you can lean on them, or hold them comfortably.
It's previously been such that if you're cold you need to get as close as possible without touching them, low flow temperatures are really very much nicer.

[al_yrpal]

I dont blame the technology! I didnt say that at all.

The problem with heat pumps is probably plumbers who either dont know how to calculate heat loads and radiator sizes that choose inadequate kit. And, its made harder by the fact that our housing stock is designed for fossil fuel heating systems. Walk into any show home with gas and note the postage stamp sized radiators.


https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ns-unspent


https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bil ... d-out.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... co-decade/

https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/air-sourc ... he-answer/

Al