I was just going by what Jon in Sweden said about the number of drilling rigs he sees in his part of the country when heat pumps are being installed. If I had one installed I'd go for ground source.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 3:08pmCapture.JPG
https://www.statista.com/statistics/864 ... on-sweden/
Heat in the home
Re: Heat in the home
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Re: Heat in the home
Given that there are millions in this country without the resources to fund the installation of an ASHP system I think it may be very difficult.Biospace wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 1:31pm I don't believe many people genuinely resent a new technology which is more efficient than the old, but perhaps what they do resent is those who start talking about how traditional fuels will be rapidly become unaffordable, or soon have a restricted supply. I can still easily source paraffin for camping stoves and although small volumes cost more than they once did, it's still about the same cost as diesel, decades after Primus stoves and their like went out of fashion.
Government has an important role to play in the uptake of heat pumps so that people actively seek them out rather than shying away due to excessively high costs - for a technology which gives 3 or 4 times more energy out than energy in, it surely shouldn't be too difficult?
I don't think people are shying away (ok I am), they are unable to fit such a scheme because they haven't the resources to do so.
Is the government prepared to invest the vast sums needed to enable them to do so? - including the upgrading of insulation and radiators?
I take your point that ASHP is very efficient as it stands - but in overall terms it uses electricity the generation of which from fossil fuels is about 60% efficient compared to using fossil fuels in a domestic boiler about 90% - so in overall terms the efficiency of ASHP is lower than you quote - even if the 4 times (400%) figure is achieved - which I doubt.
Electricity would need to be at a much lower price because even with the high efficiency of an ASHP it will still cost more to run than an existing fossil fuel boiler.
Much of our existing housing stock was built to very low insulation standards - that should be a priority.
Re: Heat in the home
What you were really doing was suggesting that air source heat pumps can't cope with mild British winters when they are commonly used in Scandanavia, which has far harder winters than we do.pete75 wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 5:48pmI was just going by what Jon in Sweden said about the number of drilling rigs he sees in his part of the country when heat pumps are being installed. If I had one installed I'd go for ground source.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 3:08pmCapture.JPG
https://www.statista.com/statistics/864 ... on-sweden/
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Re: Heat in the home
Electricity generation from fossil fuels is something that needs to be eliminated. The UK has a wealth of sustainable and renewable energy potential that isn't being properly exploited.ANTONISH wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 6:46pm
Given that there are millions in this country without the resources to fund the installation of an ASHP system I think it may be very difficult.
I don't think people are shying away (ok I am), they are unable to fit such a scheme because they haven't the resources to do so.
Is the government prepared to invest the vast sums needed to enable them to do so? - including the upgrading of insulation and radiators?
I take your point that ASHP is very efficient as it stands - but in overall terms it uses electricity the generation of which from fossil fuels is about 60% efficient compared to using fossil fuels in a domestic boiler about 90% - so in overall terms the efficiency of ASHP is lower than you quote - even if the 4 times (400%) figure is achieved - which I doubt.
Electricity would need to be at a much lower price because even with the high efficiency of an ASHP it will still cost more to run than an existing fossil fuel boiler.
Much of our existing housing stock was built to very low insulation standards - that should be a priority.
The UK is just being very slow to ditch a gas addiction that is two generations in the making. It'll come, but I think most of Europe is going to get there first.
As regards the frequency of air source and ground source being installed here - air source is less demanding of heavy plant and can be installed quite quickly. You don't really notice those installations whereas the heavy drilling rigs are hard to miss!
I stress though that the area we live in isn't affluent. The average house price here is only about £80k, if that. But people still choose to install heat pumps as the default choice.
Re: Heat in the home
I wonder what insulations standards are like in Sweden compared to here.[XAP]Bob wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 9:22pmWhat you were really doing was suggesting that air source heat pumps can't cope with mild British winters when they are commonly used in Scandanavia, which has far harder winters than we do.pete75 wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 5:48pmI was just going by what Jon in Sweden said about the number of drilling rigs he sees in his part of the country when heat pumps are being installed. If I had one installed I'd go for ground source.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 3:08pm
Capture.JPG
https://www.statista.com/statistics/864 ... on-sweden/
Some can and some can't with British winters. There's a local authority near here that is installing them in council houses and many tenants are complaining they don't produce enough heat when it's very cold. I know a heating surveyor who did a lot of work for that authority prior to the scheme being introduced. She said it was doomed to fail in cold weather because many of the properties really needed expensive insulation work and the council wasn't prepared to spend the money to implement her
Now you may say the systems were badly designed and or installed but that seems to be the case with a lot of systems in the UK. Apparently there's a great shortage trained heat pump engineers with only about a third of the number needed. Without enough trained and qualified engineers design and installation will be a bit hit and miss, as it gives a lot of room for cowboy operators. Two edged sword really. People won't have the things put in because they can't find a decent installer and installers not being trained because people aren't having the systems installed.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Re: Heat in the home
Yes the UK has a wealth of sustainable and renewable energy potential that isn't being "properly" exploited.Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑20 Mar 2023, 9:55pm
Electricity generation from fossil fuels is something that needs to be eliminated. The UK has a wealth of sustainable and renewable energy potential that isn't being properly exploited.
I stress though that the area we live in isn't affluent. The average house price here is only about £80k, if that. But people still choose to install heat pumps as the default choice.
To properly exploit the potential of this resource we need massive storage capacity.
Sometimes in the UK we get periods of cold, still and overcast weather - as long as two weeks - at such times there isn't much renewable energy available - to cover the shortfall we need storage and a lot of it.
I note that SSE are going to build a new reservoir - the first for many years which will produce 1.5GW when it's ready.
I don't know how long it will produce that 1.5 GW but definitely not for two weeks or probably not 24hrs - in any case it's a very small percentage of our normal electricity demand.
This is the problem with renewables - they can provide huge amounts of energy but not necessarily when it's needed - we can build huge numbers of wind generators and cover every surface with photovoltaic cells but we need comensurate storage and that awaits a solution that isn't anywhere near to being available.
I don't think you can compare house prices in Sweden meaningfully with the UK, the price of a house depends on demand and doesn't equate with disposable income ( in any case the UK housing market is distorted by foreign buyers) - 80k may procure you something in a very poor area in the UK the sort of area where most of the people have very little disposable income, many in private rented accomodation and are unlikely to be in the position to "choose" heat pump installation -
For example I could cross the channel to France and buy a house equating to mine at much less than I could sell for here.
But the population in Northern France isn't commensurably poorer.
Re: Heat in the home
Almost every day its possible to read in the press about yet another heat pump disaster. The toxic combination of a punter eager to be greener and a cowboy installer who knows that if he prices in new bigger rads he won't get the job... New estates currently with gas boilers and postage stamp gardens... Air source Heat Pump fans whirring away in tiny spaces annoying the neighbours. It all stacks up to a forthcoming disaster. Its no wonder there is low uptake.
Al
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Re: Heat in the home
Better, but not actually relevant.pete75 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 9:47amI wonder what insulations standards are like in Sweden compared to here.
The heating load in any house is the same, irrespective of the heat source.
So inadequate heating systems are installed and you blame the technology, which is clearly shown to work the world over...Some can and some can't with British winters. There's a local authority near here that is installing them in council houses and many tenants are complaining they don't produce enough heat when it's very cold. I know a heating surveyor who did a lot of work for that authority prior to the scheme being introduced. She said it was doomed to fail in cold weather because many of the properties really needed expensive insulation work and the council wasn't prepared to spend the money to implement her
Now you may say the systems were badly designed and or installed but that seems to be the case with a lot of systems in the UK. Apparently there's a great shortage trained heat pump engineers with only about a third of the number needed. Without enough trained and qualified engineers design and installation will be a bit hit and miss, as it gives a lot of room for cowboy operators. Two edged sword really. People won't have the things put in because they can't find a decent installer and installers not being trained because people aren't having the systems installed.
Why am I not shocked?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: Heat in the home
Almost every day people make stuff up, and complain about things they don't understand... How many people get confused by bike gears, and try to shift a derailleur when at a standstill - clearly they "don't work".al_yrpal wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 10:05am Almost every day its possible to read in the press about yet another heat pump disaster. The toxic combination of a punter eager to be greener and a cowboy installer who knows that if he prices in new bigger rads he won't get the job... New estates currently with gas boilers and postage stamp gardens... Air source Heat Pump fans whirring away in tiny spaces annoying the neighbours. It all stacks up to a forthcoming disaster. Its no wonder there is low uptake.
Al
The radiator issue is interesting - I know what my heating load is, and I know what flow temperature I currently run at (and have run at all winter as a test). I understand that most people know neither of those things, but it really ought to be the start of any planning.
A reputable installer told me I'd need to upgrade three radiators in order to run at a target flow temperature higher than my current flow temperature - I have no doubt that that's what their calculations show, but I have the data to show otherwise.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: Heat in the home
I certainly don't resent new technology. In fact as an electronics engineer of some 30 years I have my embracing of new technology to thank for my current relatively well off lifestyle.Biospace wrote:I don't believe many people genuinely resent a new technology which is more efficient than the old, but perhaps what they do resent is those who start talking about how traditional fuels will be rapidly become unaffordable, or soon have a restricted supply. I can still easily source paraffin for camping stoves and although small volumes cost more than they once did, it's still about the same cost as diesel, decades after Primus stoves and their like went out of fashion.
Government has an important role to play in the uptake of heat pumps so that people actively seek them out rather than shying away due to excessively high costs - for a technology which gives 3 or 4 times more energy out than energy in, it surely shouldn't be too difficult?
Perhaps it is my experience which drives my skepticism. I've seen many genuine technologies fail because they weren't the right tool for the situation.
Heat pumps are without doubt impressive. However, forcing an expensive heat pump installation into thermally inefficient old housing stock when electricity is both expensive and environmentally damaging just doesn't seem like the best solution to me.
If you (not you personally, the world in general) address the current shortcomings then people will choose heat pumps
For me the die is cast. A new gas boiler is on order. I will immediately reduce my carbon footprint and running costs significantly. In 5 years time the boiler will have nearly paid itself off leaving me in a position to reconsider my options. Maybe ill use the money not spent on an ASHP to add some solar power and carry out some thermal efficiency upgrades.
My experience in tech also leads me to believe that in 5 years time ASHP technology will have improved significantly, reducing the cost of installation and ownership.
It's not the immediate switch to zero emissions life which seems the only way to appease the green lobby. Its my pragmatic stepping stone
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Re: Heat in the home
Are you actually measuring it? What you set and what you get are two entirely different kettles of fish. As soon as the roomstat satisfies, the controller algorithm in my boiler turns the flow temperature right down so that it's only just enough to maintain the roomstat regardless of what the boiler stat's set to.
My stat's set to 60, but you can see that the flow drops back to 40 regardless.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Re: Heat in the home
"It's not the immediate switch to zero emissions life which seems the only way to appease the green lobby. Its my pragmatic stepping stone"
And that's fine - but many seem to forget that heat pumps and BEVs (whilst the grid isn't great) are also stepping stones, but they're stepping stones which will keep moving as the grid evolves - not something fossil fuels will ever do.
Prioritising capital investment between insulation, panels/batteries, and a heat pump is going to be a balancing act for all but the very wealthiest (who will probably do none of the above )
And that's fine - but many seem to forget that heat pumps and BEVs (whilst the grid isn't great) are also stepping stones, but they're stepping stones which will keep moving as the grid evolves - not something fossil fuels will ever do.
Prioritising capital investment between insulation, panels/batteries, and a heat pump is going to be a balancing act for all but the very wealthiest (who will probably do none of the above )
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: Heat in the home
Yes, I am actually measuring it using a DS18B20 thermally coupled to the output pipe of the boiler, and wrapped in insulation to ensure that I get as good a reading as possible. My boiler is 18 years old, and whilst it does have a circuit board there is precious little in the way of intelligence.axel_knutt wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 12:19pmAre you actually measuring it? What you set and what you get are two entirely different kettles of fish. As soon as the roomstat satisfies, the controller algorithm in my boiler turns the flow temperature right down so that it's only just enough to maintain the roomstat regardless of what the boiler stat's set to.
My stat's set to 60, but you can see that the flow drops back to 40 regardless.
Flow Temp Jan 2020.png
The control knob is just marked "low" to "high" with a "volume triangle" split into three and wrapped around the control.
I have noticed that the radiators are significantly more pleasant this year - you can lean on them, or hold them comfortably.
It's previously been such that if you're cold you need to get as close as possible without touching them, low flow temperatures are really very much nicer.
Last edited by [XAP]Bob on 21 Mar 2023, 12:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: Heat in the home
I dont blame the technology! I didnt say that at all.
The problem with heat pumps is probably plumbers who either dont know how to calculate heat loads and radiator sizes that choose inadequate kit. And, its made harder by the fact that our housing stock is designed for fossil fuel heating systems. Walk into any show home with gas and note the postage stamp sized radiators.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ns-unspent
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bil ... d-out.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... co-decade/
https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/air-sourc ... he-answer/
Al
The problem with heat pumps is probably plumbers who either dont know how to calculate heat loads and radiator sizes that choose inadequate kit. And, its made harder by the fact that our housing stock is designed for fossil fuel heating systems. Walk into any show home with gas and note the postage stamp sized radiators.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ns-unspent
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bil ... d-out.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... co-decade/
https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/air-sourc ... he-answer/
Al
Last edited by al_yrpal on 21 Mar 2023, 3:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......