Heat in the home

[al_yrpal]

Reading peoples comments about heat pumps and EVs there is a lot of resentment about the compulsive Net Zero policy. I think this drives the negativity. People obviously feel they are being compelled to accept inferior and expensive technology as early adopters that just doesnt work as well as existing stuff.
I am waiting to see what happens in 2025 when fossil fuel boilers are banned in new houses followed by a hard winter?

Al

[Jdsk]

Reading peoples comments about heat pumps and EVs there is a lot of resentment about the compulsive Net Zero policy.

UK 2021:
"Climate Change and Net Zero: Public Awareness and Perceptions":
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... report.pdf

includes:

• After providing information on net zero, around 4 in 5 (78%) of all participants said they strongly or somewhat supported the net-zero target.

• Participants perceive many co-benefits when imagining a future where carbon emissions are substantially reduced and net zero has been reached; 76% of participants believed there will be better health, 74% of participants believed there will be better well- being and 50% believed the economy will be better.

That's a great building block.

Jonathan

[Jon in Sweden]

Reading peoples comments about heat pumps and EVs there is a lot of resentment about the compulsive Net Zero policy. I think this drives the negativity. People obviously feel they are being compelled to accept inferior and expensive technology as early adopters that just doesnt work as well as existing stuff.
I am waiting to see what happens in 2025 when fossil fuel boilers are banned in new houses followed by a hard winter?

Al

But it's neither inferior or early tech. It's been established for decades. Just not in the UK.

[Lance Dopestrong]

But it's neither inferior or early tech. It's been established for decades. Just not in the UK.

I'm happy enough. As usual the minorty who have problems are publicised to death, which the majority who are quite happy just enjoy it quietly.

The idea that it is inefficient, expensive to run, or poorly performing is, by and large, tosh. Much like electric cars the majority of people with a downer on air source heating are the ones who don't have it themselves, which makes me wonder that upon which they base their high fallutin' opinions.

[mjr]

Do you think that will change the cost factor in favour of heat pumps, taking into account the £20,000+ I've been quoted for installation. Amongst other things we'd need fifteen radiators replacing.

As I mentioned earlier, that's one of the highest installation quotes for an ordinary home (as in not a mansion, palace or rambling manor farmhouse) that I've heard of. Are you sure they wanted the job and weren't just blowing smoke? Did they give any breakdown?

Were they going to replace the radiators with designer ones or something? The biggest ~4kW Stelrad K2 is under £440 retail and I doubt all 15 are that size, not least because 3 or 4 would be sufficient to output all the heat a typical pump could collect.

It's not unlikely that when heat pumps become more common the fall off in demand for oil will lead to it costing less.

I think it's pretty unlikely because the UK oil distribution system is relatively expensive to operate and won't scale down easily. At the moment, it benefits from economies of scale, but as demand falls in the UK, depots and retailers will close, distribution tankers will be scrapped or repurposed, but fewer people will be left paying for the terminals and other near-fixed costs. Also, the UK will probably be far from the last place to phase out oil, so global demand won't yet have fallen and the price will remain high due to continuing demand from other places.

It's a similar problem to that which fuel-burning cars will suffer as they become rare, like how there are now increasingly limited and expensive options for vintage cars unable to run on even E95.

At the moment I cannot see any reason to switch to a heat pump.

So you can't see the pollution and resident health reasons?

But anyway, maybe not sufficient reason at the moment, but maybe when your current burner needs replacement, things will have changed.

[Biospace]

It's a similar problem to that which fuel-burning cars will suffer as they become rare, like how there are now increasingly limited and expensive options for vintage cars unable to run on even E95.

There are a number of cars which don't like E10 over E5, mostly made in the late 90s and 2000s, which are likely a little complex to replace fuel seals etc. on. Very few are intolerant of E5, although it's worth being aware of the problems it can bring (including for modern cars).

Cars from the 1980s and before are far simpler with carburettors and mechanical fuel pumps, it wouldn't be too difficult or expensive to sort them out. Many diesels from before the 2000s will run on a very broad range of oils.

The higher the compression ratio, the better suited the engine is for running on higher blends of bio-ethanol. Some older Saab turbos can run more efficiently on higher E blends.

It's worth mentioning that the environmental credentials of bio-ethanol are questionable, many say it's being used simply as an easy way of making the carbon figures look better.

[mjr]

Cars from the 1980s and before are far simpler with carburettors and mechanical fuel pumps, it wouldn't be too difficult or expensive to sort them out.

Yes, like you can put modern drivetrains on some vintage bikes, but for those who won't or can't, it will become increasingly expensive, a bit like those who stick with oil heating when it becomes rare. There's little reason to think heating oil will be immune to this often -seen pattern.

[pete75]

Do you think that will change the cost factor in favour of heat pumps, taking into account the £20,000+ I've been quoted for installation. Amongst other things we'd need fifteen radiators replacing.

As I mentioned earlier, that's one of the highest installation quotes for an ordinary home (as in not a mansion, palace or rambling manor farmhouse) that I've heard of. Are you sure they wanted the job and weren't just blowing smoke? Did they give any breakdown?

Were they going to replace the radiators with designer ones or something? The biggest ~4kW Stelrad K2 is under £440 retail and I doubt all 15 are that size, not least because 3 or 4 would be sufficient to output all the heat a typical pump could collect.

It's not unlikely that when heat pumps become more common the fall off in demand for oil will lead to it costing less.

I think it's pretty unlikely because the UK oil distribution system is relatively expensive to operate and won't scale down easily. At the moment, it benefits from economies of scale, but as demand falls in the UK, depots and retailers will close, distribution tankers will be scrapped or repurposed, but fewer people will be left paying for the terminals and other near-fixed costs. Also, the UK will probably be far from the last place to phase out oil, so global demand won't yet have fallen and the price will remain high due to continuing demand from other places.

It's a similar problem to that which fuel-burning cars will suffer as they become rare, like how there are now increasingly limited and expensive options for vintage cars unable to run on even E95.

At the moment I cannot see any reason to switch to a heat pump.

So you can't see the pollution and resident health reasons?

But anyway, maybe not sufficient reason at the moment, but maybe when your current burner needs replacement, things will have changed.

Floor area is just under 300 square metres. Sitting room is not the easiest to heat 30 x 28 feet with 15 foot ceiling height. Installers say two heat pumps will be required.

If the figures ever do add up for a heat pump I might change.

[853]

I note that Bosch have stated that heat pumps will be unsuitable fror most of Britain's older housing stock (Victorian terraces etc.).

Really - on what bizarre basis do they think that?

Coming back to the UK's older housing stock, what should the owners of Victorian terraced houses do if they want to use a 'greener' form of heating, but have little in the way of savings and are on modest earnings?

Not a trick question, I'd just like to see what constructive advice our members with knowledge/experience of the subject would offer the potentially millions of people in such as position.

Thanks for those who have posted something constructive on this subject

For what it's worth, I'm big into insulation; not because I have anything against technology, it's just that I find it within my modest DIY and carpentry skills. And I use less energy for heating, so it's 'greener' too.

My local housing association upgraded all their solid walled houses, about 12-15 years ago, with external insulated render. It comes in brick pattern and render style and looks totally realistic. From my covert measuring, it seems to be 50mm thick.

The next question is:

If these houses have external insulated render, which I believe to be waterproof, how viable would it be to wait one summer (to let the walls dry out) and then use insulated plasterboard on the inside of the walls? For those of you with more knowledge and experience, do you think this would work whilst only losing a small amount of room size? I am wondering whether this is part of the solution to upgrading our Victorian, and older, housing stock.

[ANTONISH]

If these houses have external insulated render, which I believe to be waterproof, how viable would it be to wait one summer (to let the walls dry out) and then use insulated plasterboard on the inside of the walls? For those of you with more knowledge and experience, do you think this would work whilst only losing a small amount of room size? I am wondering whether this is part of the solution to upgrading our Victorian, and older, housing stock.

I think you are on the right track.
Instead of the government giving a £5000 handout to those who are wealthy enough to install a heat pump system we would be far better served by reducing demand.
A subsidised insulation scheme such as you describe may be more effective than the present scheme which excludes the less wealthy in the population (probably the majority.)
I've seen a Dutch company's description of an insulation system which basically encapsulates a house - could such a scheme be adapted to insulate a terrace of houses.

I am aware that there are vociferous persons on this thread who would rejoice at the demise of fossil fuel use but I think the poorer sections of society will suffer real hardship if it comes about ( unless of course electricity becomes abundant and cheap ).

[Paulatic]

Remember nuclear electricity was going to be so cheap we wouldn’t need a meter.

Helped my neighbour insulate his old house. 50mm and plasterboard on top of external walls, similar under the floors we could access. Yes lost a bit of space but never noticeable. We did that 9 years ago the cost will be more than doubled now.

[[XAP]Bob]

If these houses have external insulated render, which I believe to be waterproof, how viable would it be to wait one summer (to let the walls dry out) and then use insulated plasterboard on the inside of the walls? For those of you with more knowledge and experience, do you think this would work whilst only losing a small amount of room size? I am wondering whether this is part of the solution to upgrading our Victorian, and older, housing stock.

I think you are on the right track.
Instead of the government giving a £5000 handout to those who are wealthy enough to install a heat pump system we would be far better served by reducing demand.
A subsidised insulation scheme such as you describe may be more effective than the present scheme which excludes the less wealthy in the population (probably the majority.)
I've seen a Dutch company's description of an insulation system which basically encapsulates a house - could such a scheme be adapted to insulate a terrace of houses.

I am aware that there are vociferous persons on this thread who would rejoice at the demise of fossil fuel use but I think the poorer sections of society will suffer real hardship if it comes about ( unless of course electricity becomes abundant and cheap ).

Both are needed - one to reduce demand, and that should absolutely be targetted at those who can least afford it, the other to stimulate the industry - and that is far cheaper (for the government) do do by making it more attractive for those who are already replacing a boiler.
I think they should also provide an incentive to put heat pumps rather than boilers in all new builds - there would have to be some extremely good reason to add gas to a new property...

[offroader]

I'm keen to know what people with heat pumps are doing for domestic hot water as far as I can see there's no option that doesn't cost more to run than a gas fired alternative

I've been enquiring about alternatives for my ancient heating system which has become expensive due to poor efficiency. Calculated COP 0.42-0.45. Currently it's up to about 800 a year at current gas prices!

I've solicited 7 quotes
1) Local trusted gas installer, top of the line weather compensated boiler. Expected SCOP 0.95. Cost 3200

2) Mates rates mid range boiler. Expected SCOP 0.85. COST 2400

3) Scottish Power (my supplier) recommended installer. Replace all rads, fit ASHP, fit electric boiler. Expected SCOP (Adjusted to account for 3x fuel cost gas vs electric) CH 1.2.DHW 0.33. Cost (we don't want the job) 21,200 (-5k gov discount)

4) Basic high flow temp ASHP unit. Expected SCOP 0.75(adjusted for fuel price). Cost 13,000 (-5k)

5) Basic ASHP, replace rads as needed, immersion hot water. SCOP 1.1 CH 0.33 DHW. Cost 16,500 (-5k)

6) As 5, add underfloor heating. Expected SCOP CH 1.2. Cost 19,500

7) Didn't bother to turn up

In all fairness the ASHP quotes are all higher than they might be as they require a fuse board upgrade and changes to bring the electrics to a point where current standards can be seen with binoculars
They are also complicated by concrete/parquet flooring which dictates an external SWA feed to the compressor

Faced with these costs I can't see any way that a retrofit ASHP system is in any way economically viable. At best I'm looking at £100 a year savings for at least an additional £5k outlay. The systems will be long dead before they pay off

I'm fortunate that I'm in a financial position to even contemplate any of the green systems but I cannot make anything but option 4 make sense even though that is the most expensive system to run.

In reality I'm most likely to end up with a gas boiler and some PV panels. In the summer I should be gas free, possibly even bill free or in credit.

I applaud the green agenda but unless/until the cost of electricity is addressed it just doesn't add up for me. I wish it did

[mjr]

I'm keen to know what people with heat pumps are doing for domestic hot water as far as I can see there's no option that doesn't cost more to run than a gas fired alternative

Using the heat pump to heat it, mostly at cheap rate (about a third of peak rate) and then storing it in the well -insulated tank until needed. A daytime boost if needed tends to be 0.8kWh but is best avoided because the system doesn't do both heating and hot water simultaneously.

The best seem to be systems with solar panels (either PV or thermal) to heat it from any sun and use the pump as second choice.

I agree that the electricity price needs fixing, but I don't know why anyone is suggesting to fit heat pumps of 0.75 efficiency or electric boilers. They really can't want the job.

[softlips]

I'm keen to know what people with heat pumps are doing for domestic hot water as far as I can see there's no option that doesn't cost more to run than a gas fired alternative

Using the heat pump to heat it, mostly at cheap rate (about a third of peak rate) and then storing it in the well -insulated tank until needed. A daytime boost if needed tends to be 0.8kWh but is best avoided because the system doesn't do both heating and hot water simultaneously.

The best seem to be systems with solar panels (either PV or thermal) to heat it from any sun and use the pump as second choice.

I agree that the electricity price needs fixing, but I don't know why anyone is suggesting to fit heat pumps of 0.75 efficiency or electric boilers. They really can't want the job.

We use air sourced heat pump for hot water. Works fine to be honest.