Heat in the home

[[XAP]Bob]

Reading peoples comments about heat pumps and EVs there is a lot of resentment about the compulsive Net Zero policy. I think this drives the negativity. People obviously feel they are being compelled to accept inferior and expensive technology as early adopters that just doesnt work as well as existing stuff.
I am waiting to see what happens in 2025 when fossil fuel boilers are banned in new houses followed by a hard winter?

It's just the nay sayers who are a tiny minority but very shouty. The technology is superior, not inferior. Various places currently offering ~£3k installs (£499 in Scotland!). But like using a bike instead of a car, it takes a small change in mindset/planning.

Given that they are widely deployed across Scandinavia I think ever our harshest winter should be just fine.

[offroader]

We use air sourced heat pump for hot water.

I'm surprised but maybe heartened.

I was lead to believe from my own research and installer guidance that without a high flow temp unit hot water was not possible without assistance
My own research (a few years back) suggests that the hot water tank needs to be heated to 60+ Celsius to avoid legionella. In the specs I read this seems out of reach of normal ASHP systems, hence the need for supplemental direct electrical heating of the DHW tank

It still doesn't solve the big issues of running cost vs capital outlay. Maybe oop north (of Ringwood) in scary monster land it's possible to find an install for 3k. Here in Bournemouth the cheapest unit I can see online is 2750 plus delivery. It doesn't mention being self installing.......
Octopus advertise 3k for a notional standard install. From their sparse description my installation would not be standard. As described above it has some unique challenges.

I'm open to a heat pump if it makes sense to me. At this stage in the UK market development I can't square the circle.

Heck we've had a property heated by ASHPs for 10+ years so I know they work. Of course back then was before air conditioning went through the trendy heat pump rebrand and everyone knew it was expensive to run due to the high electricity vs gas cost but for that install it made sense

[rjb]

Up thread someone mentioned having to use the immersion heater on a weekly cycle to boost the hot water tank temp to ensure legionella was boiled off.
Here's a useful link I've just found. "Thermal Earth Ltd" https://www.thermalearth.co.uk/blog/53/ ... gionnaires?

[Mick F]

Went into the wood this morning to cut some logs up from a dry beech, or at least I tried to get there to cut more off.

Before I could get there, my way was blocked by a nice fallen ash. So, I started up the chainsaw and cut it up into short lengths for the fire, walked back and took the wheelbarrow to collect it, and now we have a nice stock of ash on the hearth and a hot woodburner with loadsa hot water in the system!

[mjr]

We use air sourced heat pump for hot water.

I'm surprised but maybe heartened.

I was lead to believe from my own research and installer guidance that without a high flow temp unit hot water was not possible without assistance
My own research (a few years back) suggests that the hot water tank needs to be heated to 60+ Celsius to avoid legionella. In the specs I read this seems out of reach of normal ASHP systems, hence the need for supplemental direct electrical heating of the DHW tank

Opinions vary on the scale of legionella risk, or if there is any risk with a mains-fed unvented tank, but disinfection only needs it that hot occasionally, ideally at a time where there's no risk of someone running a shower or similar. Routine domestic hot water should be at most 48 degrees at the tap to avoid scalding people and most heat pumps do that easily year round.

From memory, in a disinfection cycle in winter, the (regular temperature) heat pump gets it to high 50s and then the immersion is used to finish off and hold it at 60 for a few minutes before a bit of heat is sent back to the (now off) pump, ready to use in the central heating. In summer, I think the pump can be it alone from warmer air.

It still doesn't solve the big issues of running cost vs capital outlay.

No, indeed, it's a tough sell financially against mains gas at the minute, and not everyone cares much about the indoor and outdoor pollution and so on. I think it's much more competitive against tanked oil, especially if your local suppliers have high minimum order quantities and long lead times.

[ANTONISH]

No, indeed, it's a tough sell financially against mains gas at the minute, and not everyone cares much about the indoor and outdoor pollution and so on. I think it's much more competitive against tanked oil, especially if your local suppliers have high minimum order quantities and long lead times.

I have tanked oil, and a heat pump certainly makes no economic sense for me in terms of running cost (I did the costing up thread somewhere) - and the capital cost is just dead money. I have to buy oil in reasonable quanity but my last 1000l cost me £877 which will last me about a year. That was expensive but obviously there are unusual circumstances - usually I pay around £650 but the previous year was very cheap and I paid £280.
My delivery company does a top up service - I'm not sure of the minimum but they offer to deliver oil in drums for those who are close to running out.
No doubt the cost of oil will increase eventually to make the running cost of ASHP economically viable but the capital cost will still have to be factored in.
In any case given the lack of capital resource of large sectors of the population I can't see the government achieving it's target.

[[XAP]Bob]

The capital cost is best absorbed as part of an upgrade anyway... I am going to need to replace my boiler fairly soon, so spending a bit more to get a heat pump makes sense - or it can be financed (vimes boots still applies very strongly) and that balanced against reduced bills.

But the real question is, as ever: What was the payback on the new kitchen/bathroom/etc. ?
It seems that heat pumps and solar panels are often viewed as purely financial instruments, rather than as quality of life improvements.

[ANTONISH]

The capital cost is best absorbed as part of an upgrade anyway... I am going to need to replace my boiler fairly soon, so spending a bit more to get a heat pump makes sense - or it can be financed (vimes boots still applies very strongly) and that balanced against reduced bills.

But the real question is, as ever: What was the payback on the new kitchen/bathroom/etc. ?
It seems that heat pumps and solar panels are often viewed as purely financial instruments, rather than as quality of life improvements.

And how will a heat pump improve my quality of life ? My oil fired boiler keeps my house comfortably warm already.
As for reduced bills I have already shown up thread that my present system is cheaper to run - I think your response was that I should do it for the good of the planet.
New kitchen and bathroom ? you are clutching at straws.

[roubaixtuesday]

The capital cost is best absorbed as part of an upgrade anyway... I am going to need to replace my boiler fairly soon, so spending a bit more to get a heat pump makes sense - or it can be financed (vimes boots still applies very strongly) and that balanced against reduced bills.

But the real question is, as ever: What was the payback on the new kitchen/bathroom/etc. ?
It seems that heat pumps and solar panels are often viewed as purely financial instruments, rather than as quality of life improvements.

And how will a heat pump improve my quality of life ? My oil fired boiler keeps my house comfortably warm already.
As for reduced bills I have already shown up thread that my present system is cheaper to run - I think your response was that I should do it for the good of the planet.
New kitchen and bathroom ? you are clutching at straws.

I think you make a good point here, and it's fundamental to how* we move to zero carbon

There are significant externalities to burning fossil fuels; costs NOT reflected in the transaction from supplier to consumer. These include global warming and energy security. Also, arguably, inducing societal collapse when the fossil fuels run out.

Unless these externalities are included in the transaction, either by subsidising "green" tech or taxing fossil fuels, then for an individual consumer, it will not make sense to switch until it's too late.

*we will move to zero carbon, as fossil fuels are finite. Our only choice is how we go about that, including whether we fry the planet by burning the whole lot first.

[softlips]

Up thread someone mentioned having to use the immersion heater on a weekly cycle to boost the hot water tank temp to ensure legionella was boiled off.
Here's a useful link I've just found. "Thermal Earth Ltd" https://www.thermalearth.co.uk/blog/53/ ... gionnaires?

We live in a small estate of 40 new new builds. Every home has ASHP for heating and water and the homes are extremely well insulated. The system is set to heat the water to higher temperature once a week to kill any legionella. It was working out expensive for us initially as we were using it like we did our old gas boiler and having it on a few hours in the morning and in the evening. A neighbour told us to turn all the heating to the same temperature 24 hours a day, I was sceptical but it now costs less to use than our old gas system.

[[XAP]Bob]

The capital cost is best absorbed as part of an upgrade anyway... I am going to need to replace my boiler fairly soon, so spending a bit more to get a heat pump makes sense - or it can be financed (vimes boots still applies very strongly) and that balanced against reduced bills.

But the real question is, as ever: What was the payback on the new kitchen/bathroom/etc. ?
It seems that heat pumps and solar panels are often viewed as purely financial instruments, rather than as quality of life improvements.

And how will a heat pump improve my quality of life ? My oil fired boiler keeps my house comfortably warm already.
As for reduced bills I have already shown up thread that my present system is cheaper to run - I think your response was that I should do it for the good of the planet.
New kitchen and bathroom ? you are clutching at straws.

Tendency towards more consistent temperatures, as well as lower emissions in and around your house. No oil tanks etc to deal with (gain space in the garden). They're quieter than many boilers, with fewer cycles, which tend to incur significant noise.

The kitchen/bathroom observation isn't clutching at straws, it's an observation - that most people will justify buying something for a house with no payback at all, and then baulk at spending similar amounts on other things in the house claiming that payback is needed.

[Biospace]

I don't believe many people genuinely resent a new technology which is more efficient than the old, but perhaps what they do resent is those who start talking about how traditional fuels will be rapidly become unaffordable, or soon have a restricted supply. I can still easily source paraffin for camping stoves and although small volumes cost more than they once did, it's still about the same cost as diesel, decades after Primus stoves and their like went out of fashion.

Government has an important role to play in the uptake of heat pumps so that people actively seek them out rather than shying away due to excessively high costs - for a technology which gives 3 or 4 times more energy out than energy in, it surely shouldn't be too difficult?

[pete75]

Reading peoples comments about heat pumps and EVs there is a lot of resentment about the compulsive Net Zero policy. I think this drives the negativity. People obviously feel they are being compelled to accept inferior and expensive technology as early adopters that just doesnt work as well as existing stuff.
I am waiting to see what happens in 2025 when fossil fuel boilers are banned in new houses followed by a hard winter?

It's just the nay sayers who are a tiny minority but very shouty. The technology is superior, not inferior. Various places currently offering ~£3k installs (£499 in Scotland!). But like using a bike instead of a car, it takes a small change in mindset/planning.

Given that they are widely deployed across Scandinavia I think ever our harshest winter should be just fine.

At a guess most installed in Scandinavia will be ground source not air source like most here.

[[XAP]Bob]

Due to their long and cold winters, Finland’s demand for heating is one of the highest in Europe, which makes the challenge of decarbonising heat even more urgent.
-8<--
Today, heat-pumps have become the go-to source for residential and commercial heating, bolstered by affordable prices, new service-led business models and tax rebates. In 2018, air-source heat pumps reached sales of 47,000, ground-source heat pumps 8,000, air-to-water heat pumps 4,000, and exhaust-air heat pumps 3,000.

[roubaixtuesday]

At a guess most installed in Scandinavia will be ground source not air source like most here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/864 ... on-sweden/