Heat in the home

[al_yrpal]

More sniping. This thread has been cleaned up by Vorpal. Perhaps she will take note?

Al

[pete75]

Have you no scientific bone in your body? The article is chock full of nonsense.

Nonsense? What's nonsense about saying Victorian age houses lack insulation?

That is clearly true. The nonsense is saying that it makes them unsuitable for heat pumps. You would simply need to fit a higher power one. The house is arguably equally unsuitable for any heating.

Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?
I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust, and that's without taking the installation costs into account.

A good idea to fit them to all new build though and design standards introduced for optimum use of heat pumps. Compulsory fitment of integrated solar panels too.

Victorian houses clearly are suitable for heating, most of them having been heated for at least 122 years.

[pete75]

Anyway, adoption can be a situation like mine. A heat pump or an EV would make a large hole in my savings without any hope of a decent cash saving in my lifetime. And like most people I am not willing to spend my savings which might be needed to provide vital care costs or medical care on allegedly saving the planet. I'll leave that to eco concious rich folk.

Al

From posts you've made in the past you claim to have some knowledge of engineering so why not buy a pump and install it yourself. Much of the cost is for the installation work.

[thirdcrank]

More sniping. This thread has been cleaned up by Vorpal. Perhaps she will take note?

Al

Al - if you are unhappy with a post or posts, report it to the moderators rather than expecting them to follow every word.

As a general bit of advice, if you pontificate, expect people to respond.

[Lance Dopestrong]

Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?
I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust...

Well, the Energy Saving Trust would get the shock or their lives if they read my before and after energy bills. Another organisation not fit for purpose telling those that are already making it work that it doesn't work

[pete75]

Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?
I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust...

Well, the Energy Saving Trust would get the shock or their lives if they read my before and after energy bills. Another organisation not fit for purpose telling those that are already making it work that it doesn't work

I think they base their statistics on an analysis of many heating systems not just one.

[Cugel]

Nonsense? What's nonsense about saying Victorian age houses lack insulation?

That is clearly true. The nonsense is saying that it makes them unsuitable for heat pumps. You would simply need to fit a higher power one. The house is arguably equally unsuitable for any heating.

Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?
I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust, and that's without taking the installation costs into account.

A good idea to fit them to all new build though and design standards introduced for optimum use of heat pumps. Compulsory fitment of integrated solar panels too.

Victorian houses clearly are suitable for heating, most of them having been heated for at least 122 years.

In many things I yam the luddite. This is more because so many modern things are either useless or have greater non-financial costs than benefits. But heat pump and other green energy tech antis seem to constantly miss several points as well as the fact that these things provide a great range of benefits with few drawbacks compared to fossil fuel stuff.

1) Older heating technologies rely on lots of dirty and CO2 generating fuel, a situation that is already causing all sorts of large problems and will eventually cause the biggest of the lot (mass extinction, societal breakdown) if we continue using them en-masse.

2) Older heating technologies are toxic in several ways, inside the house and outside of it. We now have the modern equivalent of pea-soupers in many cities and large conurbations. The health costs are enormous, as is the damage to the biosphere in general.

3) The recent increases in the price of fossil fuels and the energy generated from them has made older energy systems unaffordable for millions of people. This isn't going to change.

4) Solar, heat pumps, windmills and insulation provide cheap and free energy for a capital outlay that will typically be recovered in 7 - 10 years. After that, its all free. You go on paying for fossil fuels and grid electricity forever. And they too involve nasty extraction processes for their feedstock - far nastier than the processes to make windmills, heat pumps et al, even though such modern systems also have an environmental impact - but far less than with fossil fuel gubbins and the fuels themselves.

5) Large centralised suppliers of energy make all the consumers a hostage to fortune, in the face of increasing system breakdowns because of many factors, from weather to wars. Local energy generation at millions of locations across the nation would be far more resilient.

6) Etc..

It amazes me that folk argue against these things just because they don't have them now and it would require an investment to have them. It amazes me most that someone else-post claims to have been a "Chief Engineer" but seems to have no argument against green energy tech other than that some gutter press newspaper said "it's rubbish". Cuh!

Cugel

[simonineaston]

It amazes me that folk argue against these things just because they don't have them now

What's so amazing about it, Cugel? There's no rule book that says we, the human animal, have any right a) to be equipped to deal with difficult decisions and b) to have a clear & definite path into the future. We're just chimps-that-learned-to-talk and as a failed experiment by the looks of it, will soon be confined to the rubbish heap of history.

[853]

I note that Bosch have stated that heat pumps will be unsuitable fror most of Britain's older housing stock (Victorian terraces etc.).

Really - on what bizarre basis do they think that?

Coming back to the UK's older housing stock, what should the owners of Victorian terraced houses do if they want to use a 'greener' form of heating, but have little in the way of savings and are on modest earnings?

Not a trick question, I'd just like to see what constructive advice our members with knowledge/experience of the subject would offer the potentially millions of people in such as position.

[Jon in Sweden]

I note that Bosch have stated that heat pumps will be unsuitable fror most of Britain's older housing stock (Victorian terraces etc.).

Really - on what bizarre basis do they think that?

Coming back to the UK's older housing stock, what should the owners of Victorian terraced houses do if they want to use a 'greener' form of heating, but have little in the way of savings and are on modest earnings?

Not a trick question, I'd just like to see what constructive advice our members with knowledge/experience of the subject would offer the potentially millions of people in such as position.

They are not impossible to bring into the modern age and heat in an environmentally friendly manner. Presently though they are uneconomical.

To start with, the UK housing stock needs to be devalued. £4000/square metre (as is the average price in the SW) is too high. It doesn't cost that to build, not even with a decent profit.

If the housing stock is devalued, it would leave a budget for insulation and heating.

Secondly, the price of renewables needs to be reduced hugely. It's too expensive in the UK. Why should an air/air heat pump cost twice as much in the UK as in Scandinavia? It makes no sense.

Thirdly, there needs to be a greater investment in renewables in the UK. Onshore wind especially. If the electricity used to heat homes is produced renewably, then you really do have sustainable heating.

Whatever the pros are of fossil fuel heating, you cannot get around the fact that heat pumps are an energy multiplier. 3-4 times the amount of energy comes out of the system than is inputted.

[roubaixtuesday]

Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?
I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust, and that's without taking the installation costs into account.

For those on LPG or oil, annual variations in prices mean that it’s difficult to give an exact estimate of annual heating costs. For example, heating oil has typically fluctuated between 40-65 pence per litre over the last five-year period, with a general upward trend in price. Unless you can buy oil or LPG at the very cheapest time of the year to cover your entire annual use, heat pumps should save you money on running costs assuming a well-designed system is installed.

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice ... eat-pumps/

[pete75]

Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?
I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust, and that's without taking the installation costs into account.

For those on LPG or oil, annual variations in prices mean that it’s difficult to give an exact estimate of annual heating costs. For example, heating oil has typically fluctuated between 40-65 pence per litre over the last five-year period, with a general upward trend in price. Unless you can buy oil or LPG at the very cheapest time of the year to cover your entire annual use, heat pumps should save you money on running costs assuming a well-designed system is installed.

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice ... eat-pumps/

Is that taking into account the £20,000 plus installation costs I've been quoted or the recent vast increase in electricity prices?

Here are figures from the Energy Saving Trust - October 2022 prices. Oil has fallen a lot since then, electriciyu hasn't.

[pete75]

[
6) Etc..

It amazes me that folk argue against these things just because they don't have them now and it would require an investment to have them. It amazes me most that someone else-post claims to have been a "Chief Engineer" but seems to have no argument against green energy tech other than that some gutter press newspaper said "it's rubbish". Cuh!

Cugel

The point about the investment is whether or not it's worthwhile.For me to have a heat pump for household heat it's not.

I do have a heat pump for the swimming pool which is a decent investment. 18kw pump installed by me for under £2,000. It runs in the summer so extracting heat from relatively warm air and during teh day when our solar panels are producing lots of electricity. Costs next to nothing to run.

[al_yrpal]

Words in mouth yet again. If you are going to argue Cugel please try to be accurate in your various assertions. In the right conditions green energy that actually works is great. It can easily be built into new homes, although almost all current big builders seem very reluctant to do it. I wonder why?
You were lucky enough to find a ready built house in which everything green had been taken care of. Others had no inkling of yet another energy crisis.
Long ago I installed a gas fired heating system in a 1920s bungalow and then a anthracite system in our new house.
As for a diy heat pump here, it wouldnt work for us and with a microbore system installed it would be hugely expensive and thus for me a non starter.

Al

[mjr]

Nonsense? What's nonsense about saying Victorian age houses lack insulation?

That is clearly true. The nonsense is saying that it makes them unsuitable for heat pumps. You would simply need to fit a higher power one. The house is arguably equally unsuitable for any heating.

Why bother fitting a heat pump into an existing house?

Loads of possible reasons. Maybe you're tired of polluting your living space, if your burner isn't installed in an outhouse. Maybe you want to stop polluting your neighbourhood. Maybe you want something cheaper to run than tanked oil.

In our case, it was pretty simple: the oil burner was at the end of its life and a new one could not be installed in its place due to regulation changes (I doubt that the exhaust pointing at the neighbour's house 0.9m away was ever legal), so installing a new oil-burning system would probably have meant even more extensive and expensive pipework and building changes. The cost of capping a few pipes, diverting others 2m up into the loft and putting a heat pump on feet on some paving should be mostly covered by the grants available at the time, as I understand it.

I'd agree that a pure money-saving argument can't be made with any certainty... but, equally, I doubt oil is going to save most people money in the long run. What price health and climate?

I certainly won't - running costs are higher than oil according to the Energy Saving Trust, and that's without taking the installation costs into account.

There's probably something hiding in the Energy Saving Trust figures. Heat pumps should be cheaper to run than oil, but I've certainly been told of loads of badly-installed, faulty and/or misconfigured heat pumps since we got ours! From memory, to match our average oil (not flukey always-buys-oil-at-cheapest), a heat pump would need 280% efficiency. Ours currently reports 368% today, 327% for the last month and 317% since installation and that's despite some faults.

A good idea to fit them to all new build though and design standards introduced for optimum use of heat pumps. Compulsory fitment of integrated solar panels too.

Yes, a very good idea, but I have heard enough about builder-fitted bog-standard misconfigured heat pumps that I worry that the standards are not sufficient to deliver anywhere near maximum benefits.

Victorian houses clearly are suitable for heating, most of them having been heated for at least 122 years.

Which is part of the point I was trying to make. It doesn't really matter what you're heating them with: you still need the same heat.

Is that taking into account the £20,000 plus installation costs I've been quoted or the recent vast increase in electricity prices?

I think we had some silly installation quotes too, and at least two installers that wanted to charge to do a full survey before they would offer any sort of estimate. It was a sellers' market, with not enough pumps or installers to meet demand.